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The 'Nice White Parents' podcast is a deep dive on exactly these problems, which I thought was excellent. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/23/podcasts/nice-white

The 'Nice White Parents' podcast is a deep dive on exactly these problems, which I thought was excellent. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/23/podcasts/nice-white-parents-serial.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/23/podcasts/nice-white-paren... My takeaway was that the kids getting into gifted programs are overwhelmingly the kids whose parents know how to get them into gifted programs, through combination of knowing the system and/or squeaking loud enough that their kids get placed. "Knowing the system" includes knowing that you have to start on applications to multiple schools perhaps a year or more in advance, for example. Kids are slotted into the gifted programs from a very young age, and then tend to accumulate early advantages which carry forward, again with strong advocacy from parents who know the system. As a result, these programs have a lot more to do with extending class privilege than anything else, and class in the US has strong correlations with race.

john_moscow 6y ago
Well, it can be solved very nicely by teaching everyone else how to "know the system". So where are the activists going door-to-door in black neighborhoods convincing the parents to submit applications to multiple schools and coach their kids through math problems so that they could get a better chance at admission? Nope, much more rewarding to go bash the upper-middle class for wanting a better future for their kids than a ghetto and a minimum wage. Mind you, nobody dares to go bash the top 1% "Ivy-league-by-donation" class. Their kids will inherit wealth, networks and power anyway. You are just helping them clear out the next 20% of the income spectrum, that would actually have a shot at competing with them. So feudalism and hereditary rule incoming.
NikolaeVarius 6y ago
Its so weird how its okay to just say that parents are just too dumb to figure out how to get kids into gifted programs. My parents literally didn't speak English and was only in the country for less than a decade after coming to the USA with a backpack and 20 dollars, and still figured out how to push me into gifted programs at a mediocre city school. It was study, do well on exams and read whatever was handed to me. I didn't even speak english w/ fluency until I was in the 3rd grade and I still did fine.
- sdenton4 6y ago
  Why should placement in gifted programs have /anything/ to do with the parents? Aren't they supposed to be about the kid's talent?
  - NikolaeVarius 6y ago
    Because parents teaching their kids how to get ahead in life with tools presented to them is a core part of the human experience? Why do we force parents to educate children in some manner? All kids should figure it out right?
  - ghgdynb1 6y ago
    Might be fun to answer this question very literally. Set up a world simulation with two nations. In one nation parents are rewarded a great deal for investing in making their kids maximally educated/capable/productive, through the better opportunities and status they win for their children. In another, just turn that dial down and reward parents who do that a little less. The simulated nations are in all other respects equal. Nation one will always outcompete nation two. Because of compounding effects, eventually the difference between the two nations will be very large. Nation one will ultimately subsume nation two and set its policy equal to nation one’s. So that’s why.
    - sdenton4 6y ago
      It's a false dichotomy. In a third nation, there's a government program that identifies high-achievers without parental input. They have a larger, less biased, field of kids to choose from, and therefore end up identifying and raising up kids that would have been passed over in the system that depends on the parents doing the right things. Since this leads to a larger pool to pick high achievers from, they end up outcompeting the country picking over achievers only from those with additional class advantages.
      - NikolaeVarius 6y ago
        So logical conclusion, all children are put in isolation from their parents, since we cannot their parents tarnish the children in any way
wan23 6y ago
I would also recommend listening to the 'Nice White Parents' podcast. I'd also add to that the 'School Colors' podcast https://www.schoolcolorspodcast.com/ https://www.schoolcolorspodcast.com/ Both of these podcasts explore the issues that inspire changes like these. If you've already made up your mind, you may not be convinced that abolishing gifted programs is the way to go, but at the very least both of these programs are entertaining and present a perspective that many people don't have. Especially for people on a forum like HN which includes many people who graduated from such programs and don't know what regular schools are like.

john_moscow 6y ago

Well, it can be solved very nicely by teaching everyone else how to "know the system". So where are the activists going door-to-door in black neighborhoods convincing the parents to submit applications to multiple schools and coach their kids through math problems so that they could get a better chance at admission? Nope, much more rewarding to go bash the upper-middle class for wanting a better future for their kids than a ghetto and a minimum wage. Mind you, nobody dares to go bash the top 1% "Ivy-league-by-donation" class. Their kids will inherit wealth, networks and power anyway. You are just helping them clear out the next 20% of the income spectrum, that would actually have a shot at competing with them. So feudalism and hereditary rule incoming.

NikolaeVarius 6y ago

Its so weird how its okay to just say that parents are just too dumb to figure out how to get kids into gifted programs. My parents literally didn't speak English and was only in the country for less than a decade after coming to the USA with a backpack and 20 dollars, and still figured out how to push me into gifted programs at a mediocre city school. It was study, do well on exams and read whatever was handed to me. I didn't even speak english w/ fluency until I was in the 3rd grade and I still did fine.

sdenton4 6y ago
Why should placement in gifted programs have /anything/ to do with the parents? Aren't they supposed to be about the kid's talent?
- NikolaeVarius 6y ago
  Because parents teaching their kids how to get ahead in life with tools presented to them is a core part of the human experience? Why do we force parents to educate children in some manner? All kids should figure it out right?
- ghgdynb1 6y ago
  Might be fun to answer this question very literally. Set up a world simulation with two nations. In one nation parents are rewarded a great deal for investing in making their kids maximally educated/capable/productive, through the better opportunities and status they win for their children. In another, just turn that dial down and reward parents who do that a little less. The simulated nations are in all other respects equal. Nation one will always outcompete nation two. Because of compounding effects, eventually the difference between the two nations will be very large. Nation one will ultimately subsume nation two and set its policy equal to nation one’s. So that’s why.
  - sdenton4 6y ago
    It's a false dichotomy. In a third nation, there's a government program that identifies high-achievers without parental input. They have a larger, less biased, field of kids to choose from, and therefore end up identifying and raising up kids that would have been passed over in the system that depends on the parents doing the right things. Since this leads to a larger pool to pick high achievers from, they end up outcompeting the country picking over achievers only from those with additional class advantages.
    - NikolaeVarius 6y ago
      So logical conclusion, all children are put in isolation from their parents, since we cannot their parents tarnish the children in any way

wan23 6y ago

I would also recommend listening to the 'Nice White Parents' podcast. I'd also add to that the 'School Colors' podcast https://www.schoolcolorspodcast.com/ https://www.schoolcolorspodcast.com/ Both of these podcasts explore the issues that inspire changes like these. If you've already made up your mind, you may not be convinced that abolishing gifted programs is the way to go, but at the very least both of these programs are entertaining and present a perspective that many people don't have. Especially for people on a forum like HN which includes many people who graduated from such programs and don't know what regular schools are like.