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This is a complicated issue. Whether intentional or not, one reason/consequence for gifted programs is they help public schools compete to keep upper income pe

This is a complicated issue. Whether intentional or not, one reason/consequence for gifted programs is they help public schools compete to keep upper income people in public schools and away from private options. However, within those schools it can create a very two tracked environment. One group of kids is invested in heavily, the other effectively warehoused. I went to a math and science magnet school. It was placed in a lower performing school. The magnet school had the effect of improving the average performance of the school while actually investing little in the communities that needed the most support. In a way it was a kind of school bussing and I got an exposure to more diversity in high school. OTOH it was clear there were two tracks at the school for the haves and the have nots. Still, what is the alternative? For upper income people public schools exist in a marketplace competing with private schools. It also seems suboptimal to have them abandon the public schools (already happening due to Covid) and segregate themselves further into private schools. In our school system they basically have kept gifted programs but let anyone opt into them. Maybe that’s a good option? I dunno.

mrDmrTmrJ 6y ago
Appreciate your comment. Any thoughts about making the Magnet school program 'the standard' for every kid? As an alternate policy to ending it, as the article describes.
- analog31 6y ago
  Logistics seems like a potential issue. It might work in a place like NYC where everybody can live within a few minutes of multiple schools, and just ride the subway to school every morning like my mom did in 1940. I live in a mid sized city in the Midwest, and the same concept would translate into 25000 minivans hitting the road every day at the same time in the morning and afternoon. Granted, a lot of parents already drive their kids even just a few blocks to school, but it could be made a lot worse. The day when both of our kids were out of day care and could just walk themselves to school was a huge liberation for my family.
sdenton4 6y ago
The 'Nice White Parents' podcast is a deep dive on exactly these problems, which I thought was excellent. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/23/podcasts/nice-white-parents-serial.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/23/podcasts/nice-white-paren... My takeaway was that the kids getting into gifted programs are overwhelmingly the kids whose parents know how to get them into gifted programs, through combination of knowing the system and/or squeaking loud enough that their kids get placed. "Knowing the system" includes knowing that you have to start on applications to multiple schools perhaps a year or more in advance, for example. Kids are slotted into the gifted programs from a very young age, and then tend to accumulate early advantages which carry forward, again with strong advocacy from parents who know the system. As a result, these programs have a lot more to do with extending class privilege than anything else, and class in the US has strong correlations with race.
- john_moscow 6y ago
  Well, it can be solved very nicely by teaching everyone else how to "know the system". So where are the activists going door-to-door in black neighborhoods convincing the parents to submit applications to multiple schools and coach their kids through math problems so that they could get a better chance at admission? Nope, much more rewarding to go bash the upper-middle class for wanting a better future for their kids than a ghetto and a minimum wage. Mind you, nobody dares to go bash the top 1% "Ivy-league-by-donation" class. Their kids will inherit wealth, networks and power anyway. You are just helping them clear out the next 20% of the income spectrum, that would actually have a shot at competing with them. So feudalism and hereditary rule incoming.
- NikolaeVarius 6y ago
  Its so weird how its okay to just say that parents are just too dumb to figure out how to get kids into gifted programs. My parents literally didn't speak English and was only in the country for less than a decade after coming to the USA with a backpack and 20 dollars, and still figured out how to push me into gifted programs at a mediocre city school. It was study, do well on exams and read whatever was handed to me. I didn't even speak english w/ fluency until I was in the 3rd grade and I still did fine.
Kalium 6y ago
I'm skeptical that there's any amount of investing in children that can make up the gap between those with engaged and invested parents and those without. Adding in raw ability does not make closing any gaps easier. And, obviously, how much money a family has has a strong influence on whose parents are engaged and invested. I attended a form of magnet school, funded by a dozen or so school districts in the county. It was able to offer classes that none of the districts could have afforded by themselves. Even there you had implicit tracking - you could do lots of calculus or lots of chemistry or lots of physics, but not all of them. Dismantling it might have improved funding a bit at the home schools, but at the cost of shutting down all the advanced courses entirely. Letting people opt in to gifted programs is a wonderful idea! A great many children only wait for the chance to succeed. That said, it might be worth considering carefully the resources requires and consequences. There will inevitably be children who are not up to the task. Opting them in to programs they are not ready for is setting them up for emotionally devastating failure as you grow class sizes. I am uncomfortably reminded of how many colleges use lower division courses as weeders. They let anyone opt in to 101 and 102, but 301 is dependent on making it past those. I love the idea of public schools. Education can, should, must be for everyone. However, this belief often sits awkwardly with the reality. Ultimately, if you want to keep higher income families in public schools you have to offer them something compelling. Dismantling gifted programs for anti-racist reasons may not always make the grade.

mrDmrTmrJ 6y ago

Appreciate your comment. Any thoughts about making the Magnet school program 'the standard' for every kid? As an alternate policy to ending it, as the article describes.

analog31 6y ago
Logistics seems like a potential issue. It might work in a place like NYC where everybody can live within a few minutes of multiple schools, and just ride the subway to school every morning like my mom did in 1940. I live in a mid sized city in the Midwest, and the same concept would translate into 25000 minivans hitting the road every day at the same time in the morning and afternoon. Granted, a lot of parents already drive their kids even just a few blocks to school, but it could be made a lot worse. The day when both of our kids were out of day care and could just walk themselves to school was a huge liberation for my family.

sdenton4 6y ago

The 'Nice White Parents' podcast is a deep dive on exactly these problems, which I thought was excellent. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/23/podcasts/nice-white-parents-serial.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/23/podcasts/nice-white-paren... My takeaway was that the kids getting into gifted programs are overwhelmingly the kids whose parents know how to get them into gifted programs, through combination of knowing the system and/or squeaking loud enough that their kids get placed. "Knowing the system" includes knowing that you have to start on applications to multiple schools perhaps a year or more in advance, for example. Kids are slotted into the gifted programs from a very young age, and then tend to accumulate early advantages which carry forward, again with strong advocacy from parents who know the system. As a result, these programs have a lot more to do with extending class privilege than anything else, and class in the US has strong correlations with race.

john_moscow 6y ago
Well, it can be solved very nicely by teaching everyone else how to "know the system". So where are the activists going door-to-door in black neighborhoods convincing the parents to submit applications to multiple schools and coach their kids through math problems so that they could get a better chance at admission? Nope, much more rewarding to go bash the upper-middle class for wanting a better future for their kids than a ghetto and a minimum wage. Mind you, nobody dares to go bash the top 1% "Ivy-league-by-donation" class. Their kids will inherit wealth, networks and power anyway. You are just helping them clear out the next 20% of the income spectrum, that would actually have a shot at competing with them. So feudalism and hereditary rule incoming.
NikolaeVarius 6y ago
Its so weird how its okay to just say that parents are just too dumb to figure out how to get kids into gifted programs. My parents literally didn't speak English and was only in the country for less than a decade after coming to the USA with a backpack and 20 dollars, and still figured out how to push me into gifted programs at a mediocre city school. It was study, do well on exams and read whatever was handed to me. I didn't even speak english w/ fluency until I was in the 3rd grade and I still did fine.

Kalium 6y ago

I'm skeptical that there's any amount of investing in children that can make up the gap between those with engaged and invested parents and those without. Adding in raw ability does not make closing any gaps easier. And, obviously, how much money a family has has a strong influence on whose parents are engaged and invested. I attended a form of magnet school, funded by a dozen or so school districts in the county. It was able to offer classes that none of the districts could have afforded by themselves. Even there you had implicit tracking - you could do lots of calculus or lots of chemistry or lots of physics, but not all of them. Dismantling it might have improved funding a bit at the home schools, but at the cost of shutting down all the advanced courses entirely. Letting people opt in to gifted programs is a wonderful idea! A great many children only wait for the chance to succeed. That said, it might be worth considering carefully the resources requires and consequences. There will inevitably be children who are not up to the task. Opting them in to programs they are not ready for is setting them up for emotionally devastating failure as you grow class sizes. I am uncomfortably reminded of how many colleges use lower division courses as weeders. They let anyone opt in to 101 and 102, but 301 is dependent on making it past those. I love the idea of public schools. Education can, should, must be for everyone. However, this belief often sits awkwardly with the reality. Ultimately, if you want to keep higher income families in public schools you have to offer them something compelling. Dismantling gifted programs for anti-racist reasons may not always make the grade.