4 ms·

Why should I put the security of my family in jeopardy hopelessly trying to improve a country that I already gave up on? I love Germany, I'd rather work improv

Why should I put the security of my family in jeopardy hopelessly trying to improve a country that I already gave up on? I love Germany, I'd rather work improving where I'm living, which is something I'm already trying to do, instead of getting stuck in the past.

ArkanExplorer 6y ago
Germans, and Europeans generally, have put the security of themselves and their families in jeopardy over thousands of years to live in the free and open societies that you are now taking for granted.
- notsureaboutpg 6y ago
  He's not taking Germany for granted by not being a vocal Erdogan opponent. Also, many Turks have done the same sacrifice for open societies, but just because you sacrifice doesn't mean you get what you sacrificed for.
- mclightning 6y ago
  FTFY : Germans, and Europeans generally, have put the security of people of color in Africa, India, Americas and their families in jeopardy over half a thousand year to democratise systems across their population to live in free and open societies that we are now able to migrate to.
  - sgift 6y ago
    So, the revolutions in Europe (which lead to democratization) happened because of whatever happened in Africa, India and the Americas? Or what do you mean?
    - mclightning 6y ago
      ...whatever happened in Africa...(tumbleweed rolls by)
    - sudosysgen 6y ago
      They were a big factor in making such models sustainable and widespread, yes.
      - cblconfederate 6y ago
        All the former ottoman empire states (which revolted) were impoverished themselves Perhaps it would help, if making a historical claim, to at least reference what's the factual basis for it.
        sudosysgen 6y ago
        Yes, and none of those states implemented anything anywhere close to the western model. We're not talking about general revolt. The reason why imperialism was important is because it allowed the European upper classes to persist in a position of material advantage despite decreasing their oppression of their citizens. It was certainly a strong contribution to convincing European upper classes to accept social restructure.
        mclightning 6y ago
        You obviously have no idea about ottoman empire; why it rose to power, its tax system as oppose to byzantine empire, why christian states co-operated with ottomans... This will be my last entry under this thread. Ottoman tax system was favourable in comparison to Byzantine empire. Ottomans and ruling class of Christian states even had marriages between their families for centuries. Comparing that to the colonies of industrial era West is just fantasy. Both from time & complexity perspective. Plus the cultural/oppression perspective.
- egeozcan 6y ago
  What a horrible thing to say. I don't know where to begin, but it's best to leave it here as I don't want this turning into a flame-war.
- true_religion 6y ago
  That may be true. But now he’s German (perhaps) and really ought to be treated as such. Or I may be talking from a hopelessly American perspective where immigrants ideally integrate and cut ties with their old counties.
  - Cyph0n 6y ago
    Expecting immigrants to cut ties with their countries is completely wrong. It may be hard for some people to understand, but a person can belong to more than one nation. In my case, I am proud to be American, but I am also proud to be Tunisian. My extended family is in Tunisia and I love the country, so I make sure to visit regularly. And I will be sure to teach my children about Tunisia, its culture, its language, and its cuisine. Over a few generations, this dual identity usually declines, simply because successive generations feel less of a kinship to their original country.
  - rchaud 6y ago
    That perspective may benefit from re-evaluation. People that immigrated to America before the advent of air travel, satellite TV and internet had no choice when it came to cutting ties with their home country. People integrate at their own pace. First-generation immigrants' kids tend to integrate fast or develop a dual-culture identity, because that is what they're around from the time they're born. The parents may never fully integrate if they came here as adults and spent a significant portion of their lifetime in another culture.
- Ozzie_osman 6y ago
  You really shouldn't judge people (positively or negatively) by what their ancestors fought for or didn't fight for, especially under oppressive regimes. Because it's ironic that you'd mention Germany, a country where the majority either supported or was silent as one of the most brutal regimes rose to power. It took armies of foreign powers to come in and change that. Sometimes people speak up and sometimes they don't. The math is complicated. Do they think it will actually have an impact? What do they stand to lose? How desperate are they? The Arab Spring showed that sometimes all it takes is one or two events to switch people from being silent and passive to being vocal and active. Unfortunately, that didn't turn out too well and the repercussions will favor more passivity.
- ruined 6y ago
  gentle reminder: germany's current civil system was imposed by military occupation.

ArkanExplorer 6y ago

Germans, and Europeans generally, have put the security of themselves and their families in jeopardy over thousands of years to live in the free and open societies that you are now taking for granted.

notsureaboutpg 6y ago
He's not taking Germany for granted by not being a vocal Erdogan opponent. Also, many Turks have done the same sacrifice for open societies, but just because you sacrifice doesn't mean you get what you sacrificed for.
mclightning 6y ago
FTFY : Germans, and Europeans generally, have put the security of people of color in Africa, India, Americas and their families in jeopardy over half a thousand year to democratise systems across their population to live in free and open societies that we are now able to migrate to.
- sgift 6y ago
  So, the revolutions in Europe (which lead to democratization) happened because of whatever happened in Africa, India and the Americas? Or what do you mean?
  - mclightning 6y ago
    ...whatever happened in Africa...(tumbleweed rolls by)
  - sudosysgen 6y ago
    They were a big factor in making such models sustainable and widespread, yes.
    - cblconfederate 6y ago
      All the former ottoman empire states (which revolted) were impoverished themselves Perhaps it would help, if making a historical claim, to at least reference what's the factual basis for it.
      - sudosysgen 6y ago
        Yes, and none of those states implemented anything anywhere close to the western model. We're not talking about general revolt. The reason why imperialism was important is because it allowed the European upper classes to persist in a position of material advantage despite decreasing their oppression of their citizens. It was certainly a strong contribution to convincing European upper classes to accept social restructure.
      - mclightning 6y ago
        You obviously have no idea about ottoman empire; why it rose to power, its tax system as oppose to byzantine empire, why christian states co-operated with ottomans... This will be my last entry under this thread. Ottoman tax system was favourable in comparison to Byzantine empire. Ottomans and ruling class of Christian states even had marriages between their families for centuries. Comparing that to the colonies of industrial era West is just fantasy. Both from time & complexity perspective. Plus the cultural/oppression perspective.
egeozcan 6y ago
What a horrible thing to say. I don't know where to begin, but it's best to leave it here as I don't want this turning into a flame-war.
true_religion 6y ago
That may be true. But now he’s German (perhaps) and really ought to be treated as such. Or I may be talking from a hopelessly American perspective where immigrants ideally integrate and cut ties with their old counties.
- Cyph0n 6y ago
  Expecting immigrants to cut ties with their countries is completely wrong. It may be hard for some people to understand, but a person can belong to more than one nation. In my case, I am proud to be American, but I am also proud to be Tunisian. My extended family is in Tunisia and I love the country, so I make sure to visit regularly. And I will be sure to teach my children about Tunisia, its culture, its language, and its cuisine. Over a few generations, this dual identity usually declines, simply because successive generations feel less of a kinship to their original country.
- rchaud 6y ago
  That perspective may benefit from re-evaluation. People that immigrated to America before the advent of air travel, satellite TV and internet had no choice when it came to cutting ties with their home country. People integrate at their own pace. First-generation immigrants' kids tend to integrate fast or develop a dual-culture identity, because that is what they're around from the time they're born. The parents may never fully integrate if they came here as adults and spent a significant portion of their lifetime in another culture.
Ozzie_osman 6y ago
You really shouldn't judge people (positively or negatively) by what their ancestors fought for or didn't fight for, especially under oppressive regimes. Because it's ironic that you'd mention Germany, a country where the majority either supported or was silent as one of the most brutal regimes rose to power. It took armies of foreign powers to come in and change that. Sometimes people speak up and sometimes they don't. The math is complicated. Do they think it will actually have an impact? What do they stand to lose? How desperate are they? The Arab Spring showed that sometimes all it takes is one or two events to switch people from being silent and passive to being vocal and active. Unfortunately, that didn't turn out too well and the repercussions will favor more passivity.
ruined 6y ago
gentle reminder: germany's current civil system was imposed by military occupation.