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> many of us refrain from heavy criticism If the people who can speak up don't speak up then how is change ever to be expected? This is btw not what usually ha
by cblconfederate 6y ago
> many of us refrain from heavy criticism
If the people who can speak up don't speak up then how is change ever to be expected? This is btw not what usually happens in such situations (immigrants fleeing authoritarianism are generally vocal against it)
- waheoo 6y agoAn American making statements about standing up and speaking out against oppression and free speech is fucking laughable these days. You're all stuck in a bubble and can't even see that your entire tech industry is pulling a fast one over liberty and democracy.
- LegitShady 6y agoThe greatest threat to liberty and democracy today are the big tech companies, agreed.
- egeozcan 6y agoWhy should I put the security of my family in jeopardy hopelessly trying to improve a country that I already gave up on? I love Germany, I'd rather work improving where I'm living, which is something I'm already trying to do, instead of getting stuck in the past.
- ArkanExplorer 6y agoGermans, and Europeans generally, have put the security of themselves and their families in jeopardy over thousands of years to live in the free and open societies that you are now taking for granted.
- notsureaboutpg 6y agoHe's not taking Germany for granted by not being a vocal Erdogan opponent. Also, many Turks have done the same sacrifice for open societies, but just because you sacrifice doesn't mean you get what you sacrificed for.
- mclightning 6y agoFTFY : Germans, and Europeans generally, have put the security of people of color in Africa, India, Americas and their families in jeopardy over half a thousand year to democratise systems across their population to live in free and open societies that we are now able to migrate to.
- sgift 6y agoSo, the revolutions in Europe (which lead to democratization) happened because of whatever happened in Africa, India and the Americas? Or what do you mean?
- mclightning 6y ago...whatever happened in Africa...(tumbleweed rolls by)
- sudosysgen 6y agoThey were a big factor in making such models sustainable and widespread, yes.
- cblconfederate 6y agoAll the former ottoman empire states (which revolted) were impoverished themselves Perhaps it would help, if making a historical claim, to at least reference what's the factual basis for it.
- sudosysgen 6y agoYes, and none of those states implemented anything anywhere close to the western model. We're not talking about general revolt. The reason why imperialism was important is because it allowed the European upper classes to persist in a position of material advantage despite decreasing their oppression of their citizens. It was certainly a strong contribution to convincing European upper classes to accept social restructure.
- 6y ago
- egeozcan 6y agoWhat a horrible thing to say. I don't know where to begin, but it's best to leave it here as I don't want this turning into a flame-war.
- true_religion 6y agoThat may be true. But now he’s German (perhaps) and really ought to be treated as such. Or I may be talking from a hopelessly American perspective where immigrants ideally integrate and cut ties with their old counties.
- Cyph0n 6y agoExpecting immigrants to cut ties with their countries is completely wrong. It may be hard for some people to understand, but a person can belong to more than one nation. In my case, I am proud to be American, but I am also proud to be Tunisian. My extended family is in Tunisia and I love the country, so I make sure to visit regularly. And I will be sure to teach my children about Tunisia, its culture, its language, and its cuisine. Over a few generations, this dual identity usually declines, simply because successive generations feel less of a kinship to their original country.
- rchaud 6y agoThat perspective may benefit from re-evaluation. People that immigrated to America before the advent of air travel, satellite TV and internet had no choice when it came to cutting ties with their home country. People integrate at their own pace. First-generation immigrants' kids tend to integrate fast or develop a dual-culture identity, because that is what they're around from the time they're born. The parents may never fully integrate if they came here as adults and spent a significant portion of their lifetime in another culture.
- Ozzie_osman 6y agoYou really shouldn't judge people (positively or negatively) by what their ancestors fought for or didn't fight for, especially under oppressive regimes. Because it's ironic that you'd mention Germany, a country where the majority either supported or was silent as one of the most brutal regimes rose to power. It took armies of foreign powers to come in and change that. Sometimes people speak up and sometimes they don't. The math is complicated. Do they think it will actually have an impact? What do they stand to lose? How desperate are they? The Arab Spring showed that sometimes all it takes is one or two events to switch people from being silent and passive to being vocal and active. Unfortunately, that didn't turn out too well and the repercussions will favor more passivity.
- ruined 6y agogentle reminder: germany's current civil system was imposed by military occupation.
- Ozzie_osman 6y agoI definitely know Turks who are vocal against their regime, but I understand that many cannot afford to be. This isn't like the old days, before social media. Now, anything you say on social media can get you or your relatives back home on trouble. PS Not Turkish but from another country with a regime that retaliates against critics.
- cblconfederate 6y agoI agree with that, and this is a huge regression we didn't even have 3 decades ago. It should be talked more
- treszkai 6y ago> immigrants fleeing authoritarianism are generally vocal against it There's a huge selection bias here (the immigrants most visible are those who speak up), so I wouldn't be so certain about this. My prior is that people don't give a shit about what's happening elsewhere, and their life is certainly easier if they don't _publish_ their controversial views. (Even if that controversial view is shared knowledge among immigrants, it's usually not common knowledge.)
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- _fat_santa 6y agoI can give some background on this, I immigrated from Russia to the US when I was 5 and I still have a ton of extended family that lives there. Do I like Putin or what Russia is doing? Hell no. But at the same time I'm not going to saying anything negative in public about Russia. If I got on the Russian governments radar forget what they will do to me, I live in America, what will they do to my Grandmother, my uncles, my nieces, my cousins? I don't know what they will do, and for that reason I cannot risk saying anything. The same applies in places like Turkey, China, etc. Yeah you might not like what the govt there is doing, but at the same time you can't risk speaking up and having the blowback taken out on your family that still lives there.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- cblconfederate 6y agoOn the other hand public pressure from abroad does work , and since politics tends to run in families, their families are at risk anyway. I can tell from the experience of my country (greece) during the dictatorial regime 50 years ago. The greeks who were persecuted / emigrated to europe (France mostly) were very vocal about the (US-backed) regime and drew international condemnation, especially the high-profile ones. It certainly contributed to its eventual downfall a few years later, but importantly it helped the swift return of democracy, because there was already a group of people who were politically organized abroad.
- monadic6 6y agoJudging by the US, speaking up doesn't matter at all and can only hurt you and your family.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]