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> Sure. Now can we do the same with the other fourteen types, or is the primary value here that there are two kinds of people: INTx and non-INTx? I started wit

> Sure. Now can we do the same with the other fourteen types, or is the primary value here that there are two kinds of people: INTx and non-INTx? I started with INTx to have at least one detailed, specific argument that there is correlation and MBTI is at least not completely meaningless. There's also a correlation between INTx and IQ, to go as scientific as we can here. Just search for IQ by personality type. Now you could say we are putting two completely meaningless metrics together. If they truly were, how could they have correlation? Big Five is not the topic here. The argument is whether MBTI can have meaning and whether it can be useful. Let's say Big Five was better, it doesn't mean that MBTI is completely useless. And I'm not going to argue about Big Five vs MBTI. > there cannot be 16 broad (even with overlap) classes of obstacles and growth opportunities in life that are specific to each personality type. No one has made this claim. There are various obstacles and challenges in life, and the only claim is that some personality types are more LIKELY to face some obstacles and challenges than other personality types. E.g. INTX will LIKELY have to put in more conscious effort to improve social skills in order to better communicate with people. This already is useful information. It also gives insights into how a person thinks and perceives the world, if you go into how functions work and which personality types are more likely to use which functions to understand what is going on. If there are 16 categories you can get a quick understanding of what a person might be like if you know the MBTI type, which otherwise you would have to read tons of paper on that person to understand what he/she LIKELY is. It's all a game of probabilities and spectrum. You could do statements like, this person is 65% I, 70% N, 75% T, 66% P, therefore there's likelihood of this person facing challenges with social situations being 80-90%. The way this person is likely to make decisions is to use internal thinking to make conclusions based on logical analysis. All of this can say a lot about the person just with 4 letters.

Twisol 6y ago
> E.g. INTX will LIKELY have to put in more conscious effort to improve social skills in order to better communicate with people I knew I needed to work on my social skills long before I tested as an INTP. My criticism is not that the correlations don't exist. My criticism is that they don't seem helpful. > It also gives insights into how a person thinks and perceives the world [...] which otherwise you would have to read tons of paper on that person Can't you just talk with them? Somebody once asked me for my MBTI class as a shortcut to trying to understand how to interact with me. It didn't work very well for them, and I didn't much appreciate being binned that way. I've always been binned as a logical person in particular, but my internal landscape has been, subjectively, dominated by creative thought and expression. Logic is just a tool I use to impose some structure on that experience. People who stop at the surface -- and worse, who label me under MBTI -- manifestly do not understand me, my motivations, my goals, or my challenges. (If you go point to some MBTI page on Logicians and say "it mentions creativity right here!" I will be very cross with you.) To say this is a sore spot may be an understatement.
- pseudalopex 6y ago
  Helpful is subjective. I don't feel like sharing something personal here though. Do you take the time to understand everyone you meet, their motivations, their goals, and their challenges? Even the ones who don't want you to?
  - Twisol 6y ago
    > Do you take the time to understand everyone you meet, their motivations, their goals, and their challenges? Even the ones who don't want you to? To the degree our relationship warrants. Don't you? We all form mental models of the people we interact with over time. I don't see how the MBTI helps that process. As mentioned, for some people who have interacted with me, it has hindered that process by establishing a totem to which I am compared. Is the argument that MBTI is useful when interacting with people you don't spend time with, who have a brief and transient presence in your life? Or is it more akin to birdwatching? I don't see either of those options as especially useful, but I won't fault anybody for it.
    - pseudalopex 6y ago
      In other words, there are a lot of people you don't get to know as individuals really. You don't have to understand how something helps other people to understand they find it helpful. Any tool can be misused of course. You seem more interested in belittling other points of view than understanding. I'm done.

Twisol 6y ago

> E.g. INTX will LIKELY have to put in more conscious effort to improve social skills in order to better communicate with people I knew I needed to work on my social skills long before I tested as an INTP. My criticism is not that the correlations don't exist. My criticism is that they don't seem helpful. > It also gives insights into how a person thinks and perceives the world [...] which otherwise you would have to read tons of paper on that person Can't you just talk with them? Somebody once asked me for my MBTI class as a shortcut to trying to understand how to interact with me. It didn't work very well for them, and I didn't much appreciate being binned that way. I've always been binned as a logical person in particular, but my internal landscape has been, subjectively, dominated by creative thought and expression. Logic is just a tool I use to impose some structure on that experience. People who stop at the surface -- and worse, who label me under MBTI -- manifestly do not understand me, my motivations, my goals, or my challenges. (If you go point to some MBTI page on Logicians and say "it mentions creativity right here!" I will be very cross with you.) To say this is a sore spot may be an understatement.

pseudalopex 6y ago
Helpful is subjective. I don't feel like sharing something personal here though. Do you take the time to understand everyone you meet, their motivations, their goals, and their challenges? Even the ones who don't want you to?
- Twisol 6y ago
  > Do you take the time to understand everyone you meet, their motivations, their goals, and their challenges? Even the ones who don't want you to? To the degree our relationship warrants. Don't you? We all form mental models of the people we interact with over time. I don't see how the MBTI helps that process. As mentioned, for some people who have interacted with me, it has hindered that process by establishing a totem to which I am compared. Is the argument that MBTI is useful when interacting with people you don't spend time with, who have a brief and transient presence in your life? Or is it more akin to birdwatching? I don't see either of those options as especially useful, but I won't fault anybody for it.
  - pseudalopex 6y ago
    In other words, there are a lot of people you don't get to know as individuals really. You don't have to understand how something helps other people to understand they find it helpful. Any tool can be misused of course. You seem more interested in belittling other points of view than understanding. I'm done.