4 ms·

Not particularly having a horse in this race, if a theory can't reliably make useful predictions, it's not a very useful theory. There's certainly something to

by Twisol 6y ago

Not particularly having a horse in this race, if a theory can't reliably make useful predictions, it's not a very useful theory. There's certainly something to be said about identifying correlations, but it isn't yet clear to me whether we can draw inferences based on those correlations to make useful predictions. In the SSC example, I wouldn't be especially shocked if there are no useful inferences in either direction, but rather a confounding variable that makes it more likely for SSC readers to answer MBTI answers in a particular way. MBTI itself wouldn't necessarily have a lot to say about this factor. (And given the intellectual, self-aware content of SSC, it seems pretty likely to me that this is the case.)

mewpmewp2 6y ago
There are tons of correlations, for example INTP/INTJ subreddits on Reddit being most popular while these types generally are one of the rarest. There's tons of things you can predict with this. INTPs are often going to face similar challenges and obstacles in life, there's similar things that will help them grow as a person that would not help other types.
- Twisol 6y ago
  Sure. Now can we do the same with the other fourteen types, or is the primary value here that there are two kinds of people: INTx and non-INTx? There's probably some bias here, but I've only ever heard INTx specifically singled out when talking about MBTI. That suggests that MBTI may make too many clear distinctions where reality draws a much softer line. A coarser-grained theory is likely to have more predictive power and be more applicable. Alternatively, a fine-grained theory with the boundaries drawn differently, such as the Big Five, may better account for these softer distinctions. I'm not saying this is definitively the case. I'm saying that a complex theory that makes a small set of predictions doesn't justify its weight. If MBTI does fall into that category, we should feel no qualms about finding something that works better for us. (Personally, I get a lot more out of the Bartle taxonomy. Only four broad classifications, and more focused on what value one seeks from certain kinds of games. Not without its flaws, either.) > INTPs are often going to face similar challenges and obstacles in life, there's similar things that will help them grow as a person that would not help other types. I really am going to need a citation for this. Here's my new horse: there cannot be 16 broad (even with overlap) classes of obstacles and growth opportunities in life that are specific to each personality type. Humans are simultaneously too subtle for a personality test to provide this level of insight, and too similar for tactics to be inapplicable to all but one type of person. It smells like horoscopes, and there are only twelve of those. We all have issues. Let's categorize those, not the personality types that we think correlate with them. It borders on claiming that the problems I have in life are because of something wrong with me, and not just the circumstances of life in general.
  - nicoburns 6y ago
    Have you looked into the "Cognitive Functions" that MBTI theory uses? If not, I'd recommend reading through the 101, 201, and 301 articles here https://personalityjunkie.com/typology-101/ https://personalityjunkie.com/typology-101/ To me I see "INTx" and think that makes no sense because INTJ and INTP have completely different functional stacks. INTJ's are dominant "Introverted Intuition" (Ni) followed by "Extraverted Feeling" (Fe), whereas INTP's are dominant "Introverted Thinking" (Ti) followed by "Extravert Inuition" (Ne). So they're basically completely different. Once you have a functional stack, then the MBTI theory becomes a lot more subtle: not only does everyone have 4 our of the 8 functions in their stack covering both sides of each of the distinctions, but the relative strength of each of these functions can vary continuously. And that's before you even get to variations based on experience, which the MBTI doesn't even attempt to describe (you'd typically use someone's MBTI type in conjunction with their life experience to explain their personality as a whole).
    - pseudalopex 6y ago
      I think they just meant INTJ or INTP. The functions are part of the controversial Jungian ideas the article mentioned. Most people ignore them entirely and treat the preferences as axes.
      - nicoburns 6y ago
        > The functions are part of the controversial Jungian ideas the article mentioned. Most people ignore them entirely and treat the preferences as axes. They do. And IMO this is exactly why the results never reproduce. The functions actually make sense and anecdotally seem to correspond to something in the real world (they've rarely if ever been subject to scientific testing as far as I'm aware). The preferences by themselves are just a somewhat less reproducible variant of the Big 5 as criticisms claim. > I think they just meant INTJ or INTP. I'm sure they did. My point being that if you look at the functions (which most anyone who takes Myers-Briggs seriously does) then INTJ and INTP aren't similar at all. So talking about them together makes little sense. Although reading up the thread, it looks like they were just suggesting that they both have subreddits. Which I guess isn't really talking about their personalities at all.
- simias 6y ago
  I don't think subreddit popularity can really mean much here because: - Redditors like to posture as intellectuals more discerning than the plebe down below, so they're more likely to engage with these personality types than others that would be considered lesser. In other words somebody being given an INTJ profile is more likely to circlejerk about it and making it part of his personality on the website. - These tests are overwhelmingly self-administered and extremely easy to manipulate to get the result that you want. And even if you don't, you can still lie about it if you feel like you're a super smart rational non emotional 20-something dude. Like I just went to the INTJ subreddit and the first post I see starts with: > What drives me crazy the most is when you’re able to notice patterns in almost every aspect of life either it’s video games, schooling, human mannerisms, etc. What drives me crazy is when people say “oh my god you’re so smart, you should be a doctor, you should be a psychologist, you should work for whatever company device you enjoy using”. Ah yes, cursed by his own intelligence he wanders on the plains of despair, unable to engage with lesser pleasures. tips fedora. This tribal aspect of these personality profile are really what I dislike the most about them. If at least people used these things for self-improvement instead of just justifying their bad behaviour. "No I'm not being a dick, I'm just an INTP mom".
- fsloth 6y ago
  The population of people who get an INTP result might have quite many asperger spectrum non-neurotypicals among them. If MB contains an accidental asperger scoring system within itself it does not make it relevant in the _general case_ for other personality types. That said if INTP can be used as a lodestar for creating asperger communities and peer-support groups it's not a bad thing. But it does not really validate MB in any way as a general purpose psychometric tool. I personally filled an online MB questionnaire or two in adolescence and certainly found the INTP score as something that helped me acknowledge a few things about myself. But it was not really something I would call fundamentally important.
- Bakary 6y ago
  The more straightforward explanation is that the INTP/INTJ descriptions are much more exciting to someone with introverted traits than any other MBTI result. They are much more likely to be discussed for that reason alone. The glamor of the result affects its distribution, when in reality people who meet the description in a plausible way are quite rare and exceptional.
  - pseudalopex 6y ago
    INTJ and INTP sound awful to other introverts in my experience.
  - mewpmewp2 6y ago
    The actual influence seems to be N - I - T - P. If you look at raw subscriber counts, but it may still be I - N if there are that many more extraverts. https://www.reddit.com/r/entp/comments/56tfmi/of_subscribers_in_each_mbti_subreddits/ https://www.reddit.com/r/entp/comments/56tfmi/of_subscribers...

by Twisol 6y ago

mewpmewp2 6y ago

There are tons of correlations, for example INTP/INTJ subreddits on Reddit being most popular while these types generally are one of the rarest. There's tons of things you can predict with this. INTPs are often going to face similar challenges and obstacles in life, there's similar things that will help them grow as a person that would not help other types.

Twisol 6y ago
Sure. Now can we do the same with the other fourteen types, or is the primary value here that there are two kinds of people: INTx and non-INTx? There's probably some bias here, but I've only ever heard INTx specifically singled out when talking about MBTI. That suggests that MBTI may make too many clear distinctions where reality draws a much softer line. A coarser-grained theory is likely to have more predictive power and be more applicable. Alternatively, a fine-grained theory with the boundaries drawn differently, such as the Big Five, may better account for these softer distinctions. I'm not saying this is definitively the case. I'm saying that a complex theory that makes a small set of predictions doesn't justify its weight. If MBTI does fall into that category, we should feel no qualms about finding something that works better for us. (Personally, I get a lot more out of the Bartle taxonomy. Only four broad classifications, and more focused on what value one seeks from certain kinds of games. Not without its flaws, either.) > INTPs are often going to face similar challenges and obstacles in life, there's similar things that will help them grow as a person that would not help other types. I really am going to need a citation for this. Here's my new horse: there cannot be 16 broad (even with overlap) classes of obstacles and growth opportunities in life that are specific to each personality type. Humans are simultaneously too subtle for a personality test to provide this level of insight, and too similar for tactics to be inapplicable to all but one type of person. It smells like horoscopes, and there are only twelve of those. We all have issues. Let's categorize those, not the personality types that we think correlate with them. It borders on claiming that the problems I have in life are because of something wrong with me, and not just the circumstances of life in general.
- nicoburns 6y ago
  Have you looked into the "Cognitive Functions" that MBTI theory uses? If not, I'd recommend reading through the 101, 201, and 301 articles here https://personalityjunkie.com/typology-101/ https://personalityjunkie.com/typology-101/ To me I see "INTx" and think that makes no sense because INTJ and INTP have completely different functional stacks. INTJ's are dominant "Introverted Intuition" (Ni) followed by "Extraverted Feeling" (Fe), whereas INTP's are dominant "Introverted Thinking" (Ti) followed by "Extravert Inuition" (Ne). So they're basically completely different. Once you have a functional stack, then the MBTI theory becomes a lot more subtle: not only does everyone have 4 our of the 8 functions in their stack covering both sides of each of the distinctions, but the relative strength of each of these functions can vary continuously. And that's before you even get to variations based on experience, which the MBTI doesn't even attempt to describe (you'd typically use someone's MBTI type in conjunction with their life experience to explain their personality as a whole).
  - pseudalopex 6y ago
    I think they just meant INTJ or INTP. The functions are part of the controversial Jungian ideas the article mentioned. Most people ignore them entirely and treat the preferences as axes.
    - nicoburns 6y ago
      > The functions are part of the controversial Jungian ideas the article mentioned. Most people ignore them entirely and treat the preferences as axes. They do. And IMO this is exactly why the results never reproduce. The functions actually make sense and anecdotally seem to correspond to something in the real world (they've rarely if ever been subject to scientific testing as far as I'm aware). The preferences by themselves are just a somewhat less reproducible variant of the Big 5 as criticisms claim. > I think they just meant INTJ or INTP. I'm sure they did. My point being that if you look at the functions (which most anyone who takes Myers-Briggs seriously does) then INTJ and INTP aren't similar at all. So talking about them together makes little sense. Although reading up the thread, it looks like they were just suggesting that they both have subreddits. Which I guess isn't really talking about their personalities at all.
simias 6y ago
I don't think subreddit popularity can really mean much here because: - Redditors like to posture as intellectuals more discerning than the plebe down below, so they're more likely to engage with these personality types than others that would be considered lesser. In other words somebody being given an INTJ profile is more likely to circlejerk about it and making it part of his personality on the website. - These tests are overwhelmingly self-administered and extremely easy to manipulate to get the result that you want. And even if you don't, you can still lie about it if you feel like you're a super smart rational non emotional 20-something dude. Like I just went to the INTJ subreddit and the first post I see starts with: > What drives me crazy the most is when you’re able to notice patterns in almost every aspect of life either it’s video games, schooling, human mannerisms, etc. What drives me crazy is when people say “oh my god you’re so smart, you should be a doctor, you should be a psychologist, you should work for whatever company device you enjoy using”. Ah yes, cursed by his own intelligence he wanders on the plains of despair, unable to engage with lesser pleasures. tips fedora. This tribal aspect of these personality profile are really what I dislike the most about them. If at least people used these things for self-improvement instead of just justifying their bad behaviour. "No I'm not being a dick, I'm just an INTP mom".
fsloth 6y ago
The population of people who get an INTP result might have quite many asperger spectrum non-neurotypicals among them. If MB contains an accidental asperger scoring system within itself it does not make it relevant in the _general case_ for other personality types. That said if INTP can be used as a lodestar for creating asperger communities and peer-support groups it's not a bad thing. But it does not really validate MB in any way as a general purpose psychometric tool. I personally filled an online MB questionnaire or two in adolescence and certainly found the INTP score as something that helped me acknowledge a few things about myself. But it was not really something I would call fundamentally important.
Bakary 6y ago
The more straightforward explanation is that the INTP/INTJ descriptions are much more exciting to someone with introverted traits than any other MBTI result. They are much more likely to be discussed for that reason alone. The glamor of the result affects its distribution, when in reality people who meet the description in a plausible way are quite rare and exceptional.
- pseudalopex 6y ago
  INTJ and INTP sound awful to other introverts in my experience.
- mewpmewp2 6y ago
  The actual influence seems to be N - I - T - P. If you look at raw subscriber counts, but it may still be I - N if there are that many more extraverts. https://www.reddit.com/r/entp/comments/56tfmi/of_subscribers_in_each_mbti_subreddits/ https://www.reddit.com/r/entp/comments/56tfmi/of_subscribers...