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> inferior to IC by almost every metric that matters. ??? Maybe you've missed the memo? Acceleration? EVs win. Cabin Noise? EVs win. Maintenance? EVs win.

> inferior to IC by almost every metric that matters. ??? Maybe you've missed the memo? Acceleration? EVs win. Cabin Noise? EVs win. Maintenance? EVs win. Cost of driving? EVs win. ICE vehicles win in exactly 1 scenario: Being able to fuel up quickly on road trips greater than 300 miles.

hetspookjee 6y ago
Driving characteristics are an argument for the sporty drivers as well.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- grecy 6y ago
  Elon said the Model 3 would be quicker than a BMW M3 and have better handling. He said it would "beat anything in it's class on the track" Not content to believe him, Top Gear put it to the test. See for yourself: https://www.topgear.com/videos/top-gear-tv/tesla-model-3-vs-m3-c63-and-giulia-top-gear-series-27 https://www.topgear.com/videos/top-gear-tv/tesla-model-3-vs-... (Also, the Performance Model 3 had an over the air update to make it faster since this was filmed, and added track mode)
  - ogre_codes 6y ago
    That's a fun video. Notably, I think every one of the cars it's pitted against cost much more than the Tesla. So this idea that Teslas are expensive compared to their peers doesn't hold water. The Mercedes that beat it in the 1/2 mile cost a whopping $160k and none of the other cars were even close in the quarter mile.
    - laut 6y ago
      The Mercedes AMG C 63 S costs USD $76,200 (MSRP) in the US according to https://www.mbusa.com/en/vehicles/model/c-class/sedan/c63ws https://www.mbusa.com/en/vehicles/model/c-class/sedan/c63ws
      - ogre_codes 6y ago
        I got the impression they weren't racing the base model, but you are spot on. Regardless. It's still $20k more expensive than the Model 3 Performance it was against.
  - hetspookjee 6y ago
    I believe that without doubt. I'm more referring to the organic nature of an ICE. You have the noises, the vibrations and power delivery curve and manual shifting. Regarding spreadsheet specs, an electric vehicle is better in almost every aspect. But in emotional value I believe there is still a tiny spot reserved for ICEs
    - sunstone 6y ago
      So an ICE is better than electric in much the same sense that a horse is better than an ICE.
      - hetspookjee 6y ago
        I think that's a fair comparison, indeed.
    - ogre_codes 6y ago
      > But in emotional value I believe there is still a tiny spot reserved for ICEs It is indeed tiny. People like to hear car engines rev at a car show or race track. Most of those same people don't want to have anything to do with those same sounds in their daily driver. Car manufacturers spend billions isolating the driver and the passengers from engine noises, vibrations, and in particular smells.
pkolaczk 6y ago
Initial price tag: ICEs and HEVs win by a large margin Acceleration: depends, not all EVs are Teslas; additionally this is a moot point, because we're not comparing race cars, and you'd be blocked by traffic anyways most of the time. You also won't save any time from faster accelerating, because you'll lose a lot more for charging. Cabin noise: only in city driving, on highway most of noise comes from road and wind; HEVs are almost as good in city driving, because of driven carefully they use ICE only while accelerating. Cost of driving: debatable, depends on the world region and electricity prices; the cost of driving 100km is lower in a HEV or diesel than an EV charged from a public fast-charger, at least in many regions of Europe
- tonyedgecombe 6y ago
  Initial price tag doesn't matter as much as you might think. Most people lease their cars, they will be trading off extra costs on the lease for lower fuel costs.
  - pkolaczk 6y ago
    As I said, lower fuel costs is quite debatable and heavily depends on the region and what you will use the car for. If you can't charge it at home like many people living in dense city areas, or if you drive long distances, then you'll have to use public chargers which are much more expensive. Initially in Poland when almost nobody had EVs these chargers were free, now they are 2x-6x more expensive than charging at home and in this case ICEs are actually cheaper. If you drive short distances only and you do have a garage, then charging at home will work for you, but then you might not get high enough mileage to offset the initial price difference. Additionally the deprecation is higher on EVs (probably due to concerns about the battery durability) so that would be also included in the lease.
    - tonyedgecombe 6y ago
      Poland does seem to be a laggard on EV's, I seem to remember reading that the UK has thirty times as many public charging points as Poland.

hetspookjee 6y ago

Driving characteristics are an argument for the sporty drivers as well.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
grecy 6y ago
Elon said the Model 3 would be quicker than a BMW M3 and have better handling. He said it would "beat anything in it's class on the track" Not content to believe him, Top Gear put it to the test. See for yourself: https://www.topgear.com/videos/top-gear-tv/tesla-model-3-vs-m3-c63-and-giulia-top-gear-series-27 https://www.topgear.com/videos/top-gear-tv/tesla-model-3-vs-... (Also, the Performance Model 3 had an over the air update to make it faster since this was filmed, and added track mode)
- ogre_codes 6y ago
  That's a fun video. Notably, I think every one of the cars it's pitted against cost much more than the Tesla. So this idea that Teslas are expensive compared to their peers doesn't hold water. The Mercedes that beat it in the 1/2 mile cost a whopping $160k and none of the other cars were even close in the quarter mile.
  - laut 6y ago
    The Mercedes AMG C 63 S costs USD $76,200 (MSRP) in the US according to https://www.mbusa.com/en/vehicles/model/c-class/sedan/c63ws https://www.mbusa.com/en/vehicles/model/c-class/sedan/c63ws
    - ogre_codes 6y ago
      I got the impression they weren't racing the base model, but you are spot on. Regardless. It's still $20k more expensive than the Model 3 Performance it was against.
- hetspookjee 6y ago
  I believe that without doubt. I'm more referring to the organic nature of an ICE. You have the noises, the vibrations and power delivery curve and manual shifting. Regarding spreadsheet specs, an electric vehicle is better in almost every aspect. But in emotional value I believe there is still a tiny spot reserved for ICEs
  - sunstone 6y ago
    So an ICE is better than electric in much the same sense that a horse is better than an ICE.
    - hetspookjee 6y ago
      I think that's a fair comparison, indeed.
  - ogre_codes 6y ago
    > But in emotional value I believe there is still a tiny spot reserved for ICEs It is indeed tiny. People like to hear car engines rev at a car show or race track. Most of those same people don't want to have anything to do with those same sounds in their daily driver. Car manufacturers spend billions isolating the driver and the passengers from engine noises, vibrations, and in particular smells.

pkolaczk 6y ago

Initial price tag: ICEs and HEVs win by a large margin Acceleration: depends, not all EVs are Teslas; additionally this is a moot point, because we're not comparing race cars, and you'd be blocked by traffic anyways most of the time. You also won't save any time from faster accelerating, because you'll lose a lot more for charging. Cabin noise: only in city driving, on highway most of noise comes from road and wind; HEVs are almost as good in city driving, because of driven carefully they use ICE only while accelerating. Cost of driving: debatable, depends on the world region and electricity prices; the cost of driving 100km is lower in a HEV or diesel than an EV charged from a public fast-charger, at least in many regions of Europe

tonyedgecombe 6y ago
Initial price tag doesn't matter as much as you might think. Most people lease their cars, they will be trading off extra costs on the lease for lower fuel costs.
- pkolaczk 6y ago
  As I said, lower fuel costs is quite debatable and heavily depends on the region and what you will use the car for. If you can't charge it at home like many people living in dense city areas, or if you drive long distances, then you'll have to use public chargers which are much more expensive. Initially in Poland when almost nobody had EVs these chargers were free, now they are 2x-6x more expensive than charging at home and in this case ICEs are actually cheaper. If you drive short distances only and you do have a garage, then charging at home will work for you, but then you might not get high enough mileage to offset the initial price difference. Additionally the deprecation is higher on EVs (probably due to concerns about the battery durability) so that would be also included in the lease.
  - tonyedgecombe 6y ago
    Poland does seem to be a laggard on EV's, I seem to remember reading that the UK has thirty times as many public charging points as Poland.