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> You won’t trade MtG cards but NFTs. How about MtG cards that are NFTs? Before a match, both players commit to a deck of cards and produce a zero-knowledge pr

by yorwba 6y ago

> You won’t trade MtG cards but NFTs. How about MtG cards that are NFTs? Before a match, both players commit to a deck of cards and produce a zero-knowledge proof that they own all the cards in the deck (i.e. without revealing which cards they have.) All kinds of cryptographic tricks will be necessary to simulate the process of shuffling and drawing cards while ensuring that nobody can cheat. Exciting!

eru 6y ago
It's actually not that hard, if you require players to reveal their complete deck after the match, and if you are willing to wait for cheaters to be caught at that time. (If you want to support cryptographic poker, where opponents learn nothing if there's no showdown; then you need lots of shenanigans.)
jimkleiber 6y ago
This really helped me see potential in NFTs. Before your comment, I was just seeing NFTs as this new certificate of authenticity/ownership that was going to be lost in a sea of property rights management governance. But after reading what you wrote, I'm starting to see NFTs not as the big deal, but the apps that build on top of NFTs. Because having a MgT digital card by itself may not mean much, but the MgT application layer may only recognize official NFT cards to play (which seems easy to do from an app perspective) and therefore the NFT gets used in this code. So I think NFTs may hit more in other fields outside of art, like digital playing cards, digital event tickets, etc. May still work for art. Could be fascinating to have an app layer on top of the art. Almost like an art museum, or maybe exclusive art events where you have to have specific NFTs to attend. Almost like exclusive membership to a club. (Oh great, now with all these ideas in my head I may not sleep lol)
- ckozlowski 6y ago
  I think you're both onto something here. For art I'm skeptical (See my reply in this same discussion for why), but for creative works with utility, and NFT might be more useful if the platform they can be used on requires validation of the token. In that sense, it seems to become a sort of public DRM. I'm sure we can spend a long time musing on the implications of that.
- hnedeotes 6y ago
  I'm actually building a TCG so this is from my perspective in that context and referring to TCG "like" apps only. An abstract representation of a digital item not tied to the app/platform has some benefits: - It can allow a market for them without me having to implement the market itself; - That in turn makes the items themselves more valuable But it also has many downsides and some significant: - I don't have to implement the market but I have to conform all my app to work with that particular way of representing the item and I have to make interfaces to it all. If then I want to implement an internal market it has to be fully integrated with the outside. - For ownership verifications it's much more heavy to assert ownership. As a practical example, in order to allow users an incentive to play when you signup you get a set of item "packs", with random contents generated when they're opened, the items in that pack can be used in tournaments/matches that require ownership of the items but in order to remove any benefit from creating multiple accounts to hoard items and resell them, the items in those packs are "owner_only". They can be used but not traded or sold. To do verifications for selling for instance, it's a simple db query, to do verifications of ownership before a match is started it's a simple db query. I would imagine it would become easily much heavier to do any of these simple things, or you might need to wait until your "purchases" are settled so that they show up, and etc. - Then the blockchain itself. Is it connected to the outside world and managed by multiple parties? Can those multiple parties get together in a 51% party and rewrite the story of the blockain in which the assets used in my game are stored? Is it an internal blockchain? If it's internal why use it at all instead of a db with backups and consolidation? I'm sure there's other considerations. The idea of a market for items that is larger than your app items is certainly interesting but not sure the logistics play out. Would love to see some ideas explored in that field though. *edit formatting
  - meheleventyone 6y ago
    I could see something amiibo (https://www.nintendo.com/amiibo/ https://www.nintendo.com/amiibo/) like where the NFT basically unlocks things in different games but really struggle from a business perspective why you’d choose the crypto route over owning the market yourself. Particularly if there is supposed to be some permanence to the asset the NFT points to. For example the game no longer makes money but for some unforeseen reason someone owns an NFT of a game item worth $100,000 what happens when you pull all the game infrastructure and therefore the linked item down?

by yorwba 6y ago

eru 6y ago

It's actually not that hard, if you require players to reveal their complete deck after the match, and if you are willing to wait for cheaters to be caught at that time. (If you want to support cryptographic poker, where opponents learn nothing if there's no showdown; then you need lots of shenanigans.)

jimkleiber 6y ago

This really helped me see potential in NFTs. Before your comment, I was just seeing NFTs as this new certificate of authenticity/ownership that was going to be lost in a sea of property rights management governance. But after reading what you wrote, I'm starting to see NFTs not as the big deal, but the apps that build on top of NFTs. Because having a MgT digital card by itself may not mean much, but the MgT application layer may only recognize official NFT cards to play (which seems easy to do from an app perspective) and therefore the NFT gets used in this code. So I think NFTs may hit more in other fields outside of art, like digital playing cards, digital event tickets, etc. May still work for art. Could be fascinating to have an app layer on top of the art. Almost like an art museum, or maybe exclusive art events where you have to have specific NFTs to attend. Almost like exclusive membership to a club. (Oh great, now with all these ideas in my head I may not sleep lol)

ckozlowski 6y ago
I think you're both onto something here. For art I'm skeptical (See my reply in this same discussion for why), but for creative works with utility, and NFT might be more useful if the platform they can be used on requires validation of the token. In that sense, it seems to become a sort of public DRM. I'm sure we can spend a long time musing on the implications of that.
hnedeotes 6y ago
I'm actually building a TCG so this is from my perspective in that context and referring to TCG "like" apps only. An abstract representation of a digital item not tied to the app/platform has some benefits: - It can allow a market for them without me having to implement the market itself; - That in turn makes the items themselves more valuable But it also has many downsides and some significant: - I don't have to implement the market but I have to conform all my app to work with that particular way of representing the item and I have to make interfaces to it all. If then I want to implement an internal market it has to be fully integrated with the outside. - For ownership verifications it's much more heavy to assert ownership. As a practical example, in order to allow users an incentive to play when you signup you get a set of item "packs", with random contents generated when they're opened, the items in that pack can be used in tournaments/matches that require ownership of the items but in order to remove any benefit from creating multiple accounts to hoard items and resell them, the items in those packs are "owner_only". They can be used but not traded or sold. To do verifications for selling for instance, it's a simple db query, to do verifications of ownership before a match is started it's a simple db query. I would imagine it would become easily much heavier to do any of these simple things, or you might need to wait until your "purchases" are settled so that they show up, and etc. - Then the blockchain itself. Is it connected to the outside world and managed by multiple parties? Can those multiple parties get together in a 51% party and rewrite the story of the blockain in which the assets used in my game are stored? Is it an internal blockchain? If it's internal why use it at all instead of a db with backups and consolidation? I'm sure there's other considerations. The idea of a market for items that is larger than your app items is certainly interesting but not sure the logistics play out. Would love to see some ideas explored in that field though. *edit formatting
- meheleventyone 6y ago
  I could see something amiibo (https://www.nintendo.com/amiibo/ https://www.nintendo.com/amiibo/) like where the NFT basically unlocks things in different games but really struggle from a business perspective why you’d choose the crypto route over owning the market yourself. Particularly if there is supposed to be some permanence to the asset the NFT points to. For example the game no longer makes money but for some unforeseen reason someone owns an NFT of a game item worth $100,000 what happens when you pull all the game infrastructure and therefore the linked item down?