9 ms·

A 'Lamborghini' of Chariots Is Discovered at Pompeii

169 points by protomyth 6y ago

1experience 6y ago
Excavation video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0uO-1f0gw_U https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0uO-1f0gw_U
- mc32 6y ago
  This one adds more to it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6dQyBBPPuPw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6dQyBBPPuPw
hristov 6y ago
It is a little disappointing to see npr resorting to internet ad spam style headlines. Unless of course this truly is the chariot my archeologist does not want me to know about.
- asveikau 6y ago
  The article quotes an archeologist calling it a "Lamborghini" (compared to more of a "station wagon" he typically studies) and saying he is "astounded". So, it's a fair summary to somebody, a helpful metaphor that people will understand, and conveys that it is a rare find. Unless the quoted source is himself being sensationalist, I don't think it's "clickbait" to use his summary as a headline.
  - hcayless 6y ago
    The archeologist quoted, Eric Poehler, tweeted about it this morning: https://twitter.com/Pompeiana79/status/1365692315407441926 https://twitter.com/Pompeiana79/status/1365692315407441926 It's pretty spectacular.
  - tokai 6y ago
    Makes you wonder what kind of headline is acceptable, when one abbreviated solely from the quotes of experts is not.
  - nostromo 6y ago
    I think this commenter was referencing the “Archaeologists Are Wowed” part of the headline, not the Lamborghini part.
    - asveikau 6y ago
      And yet, the article quotes somebody saying he is "astounded". "Wowed" is an acceptable synonym, is it not? I guess they made that one archaeologist into plural...
  - Animats 6y ago
    I was expecting something higher performance. "Four wheeled processional chariot" is more like an open-top limo. The Roman Empire had good wagon technology - metal on metal bearings, lathe-turned hubs, etc.
- kristopolous 6y ago
  Looking at the author's other works, it's like a soft touch clickbait. I mean it's certainly there but it's an interesting balance, pretty tempered https://www.npr.org/people/348743421/becky-sullivan https://www.npr.org/people/348743421/becky-sullivan You hear about this from authors all the time who get disappointed in what the publishers choose for the book title. It's been like this for a while. Donald Normans "the design of everyday things" was initially "the psychology of everyday things" but psychology books don't sell well and apparently such errant superficialities matter. He's a respectable academic, shouldn't be subject to such stuff, but here we are nonetheless. I wish I could say content works without marketing and a bit of formulaic sensationalism for the title but it really doesn't perform without it. It appears to be kind of a requirement.
  - kragen 6y ago
    I don't think it's that psychology books in general don't sell well. The nonfiction bestsellers list always has a lot of psychology books in it†! But when it was "POET," it got shelved in the psychology section of bookstores. So, if you went into a bookstore looking for help coping with your childhood traumas or marriage problem, you might run across this book about how industrial products and software were badly designed, and how to design them better, using new findings from cognitive psychology. But if you went into the bookstore to learn about how to design industrial products or software, you'd end up in the "design" or "software" section, so you wouldn't find it. ______ † Right now Amazon's nonfiction bestseller list https://www.amazon.com/Best-Sellers-Kindle-Store-Nonfiction/zgbs/digital-text/157325011 https://www.amazon.com/Best-Sellers-Kindle-Store-Nonfiction/... has "The Psychopath" at #1, "Mindset" at #2, "Master Your Emotions" at #18, "The 7 Habits" at #21, "Girl, Stop Apologizing" at #28, "13 Things Mentally Strong People Don't Do" at #31, "The Declutter Challenge" at #34, and "Thinking, Fast and Slow" at #50, plus a number of gray-area books; the New York Times has "Think Again" at #11. I think it's fair to say that psychology books sell a buttload.
- f430 6y ago
  this type of nitpicking pedantry is what makes HN shine
jeffgreco 6y ago
Some background on why we're seeing more Pompeii discoveries lately, as well as why looting is up as well: https://www.cnn.com/travel/article/pompeii-new-excavations-looting/index.html https://www.cnn.com/travel/article/pompeii-new-excavations-l...
anonu 6y ago
Pompeii is such a treasure. Part of me wants them to dig it all up and part of me thinks it should just stay covered - maybe for future generations in a couple more centuries.
- wombatmobile 6y ago
  I could possibly understand if you wanted the ruins to stay permanently covered, since that preserves the fidelity of the tragic occurrence for what it is. But why wait a while and then dig it up? What purpose does that serve?
  - krick 6y ago
    A hope that better methods and technologies to reconstruct the past will be available, obviously.
    - wombatmobile 6y ago
      I see. How long should we wait?
kragen 6y ago
To add some historical context, chariots were the dominant battlefield technology throughout the Old World for centuries—maybe like the Bronze Age version of a main battle tank. But in the Iron Age (around 01000 BCE) they were displaced by massed formations with spears, which continued to be the dominant battlefield technology until the Gatling and Maxim guns in the late 01800s (CE). Pompeii is preserved, if that's the word, from 00079 CE, so at that point chariots had been primarily ceremonial for about a millennium, like cavalry is today.
- aptwebapps 6y ago
  Aren't there non-military uses for transportation?
  - kragen 6y ago
    Yes, but the chariot originated as a military vehicle. Fast transportation was provided by horses, while bulk transportation was provided by boats, wagons, or, in China, a vehicle commonly called a "wheelbarrow", though it's very unlike the common modern device by the same name. The chariot, by virtue of holding two men, allowed an archer to travel at the speed of a galloping horse, while also protecting them to some extent from the arrows, axes, and swords of others. It was an unbeatable battlefield combination for centuries, and the accounts of Bronze Age battles—in Hatti, Egypt, India, and China—are basically accounts of battles between chariot formations. And then... it wasn't.
    - aptwebapps 6y ago
      My question was that while this particular chariot seems like it might have been used for ceremonial purposes, was that true for all chariots? The military context is interesting, but its surely only part of the picture. To put it a different way, after its military significance faded, was it actually relegated to purely ceremonial uses or was it a popular means of transportation?
      - kragen 6y ago
whateveracct 6y ago
The Macedonian Tau-Lambda?!
bill_mon 6y ago
This article is hidden behind a cookie wall, pressing "Agree and Continue" does nothing. Edit: tried opening in firejail and enableing javascript, this gave some kind of infinite loop reloading the page over and over.
- gostsamo 6y ago
  Click on "your choices".
- mrob 6y ago
  NPR articles can be accessed without the cookie-wall on the text only version of their site: https://text.npr.org/972118983 https://text.npr.org/972118983
forgotmypw17 6y ago
>Notably, the chariot is adorned with metal medallions depicting satyrs, nymphs and cupids, suggesting the possibility that it may have been used in marriage ceremonies. I know it's Italy, but that still sounds more like a Rolls or a Bentley than a Lamborghini to me :)
- kylehotchkiss 6y ago
  Sounds like amazing Italian vehicle design pedigree goes back way further than we originally thought!
- aitchnyu 6y ago
  I once read about a lightweight, two-wheeled chariot model which reckless rich men raced in the night and crashed. I was expecting something similar.
kbrtalan 6y ago
Sic transit, Gloria!
pseudolus 6y ago
The story of chariots in the Roman Empire is fascinating. However much we tend to associate sports obsession and violence with contemporary times the Romans/Byzantines had us long beat.[0][1] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nika_riots https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nika_riots [1] https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/blue-versus-green-rocking-the-byzantine-empire-113325928/ https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/blue-versus-green-roc...
tanylak 6y ago
Are you sure it wasn't a Ferrari?
credit_guy 6y ago
Where's the substance? > "It is an extraordinary discovery for the advancement of our knowledge of the ancient world," How exactly did this discovery advance our knowledge of the Roman civilization? We know more about the Roman civilization than about any other civilization until modern times. We know about their military organization, weapons, campaigns, wars, victories and defeats, we know about their legal framework, administration, constructions, culture, etc, etc. What exactly did this chariot teach us? A bunch of archeologists are throwing various superlatives to make us believe their work is important (and maybe convince us that more funding is warranted). Writers have a saying "show, don't tell". These guys should listen.

169 points by protomyth 6y ago

1experience 6y ago

Excavation video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0uO-1f0gw_U https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0uO-1f0gw_U

mc32 6y ago
This one adds more to it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6dQyBBPPuPw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6dQyBBPPuPw

hristov 6y ago

It is a little disappointing to see npr resorting to internet ad spam style headlines. Unless of course this truly is the chariot my archeologist does not want me to know about.

asveikau 6y ago
The article quotes an archeologist calling it a "Lamborghini" (compared to more of a "station wagon" he typically studies) and saying he is "astounded". So, it's a fair summary to somebody, a helpful metaphor that people will understand, and conveys that it is a rare find. Unless the quoted source is himself being sensationalist, I don't think it's "clickbait" to use his summary as a headline.
- hcayless 6y ago
  The archeologist quoted, Eric Poehler, tweeted about it this morning: https://twitter.com/Pompeiana79/status/1365692315407441926 https://twitter.com/Pompeiana79/status/1365692315407441926 It's pretty spectacular.
- tokai 6y ago
  Makes you wonder what kind of headline is acceptable, when one abbreviated solely from the quotes of experts is not.
- nostromo 6y ago
  I think this commenter was referencing the “Archaeologists Are Wowed” part of the headline, not the Lamborghini part.
  - asveikau 6y ago
    And yet, the article quotes somebody saying he is "astounded". "Wowed" is an acceptable synonym, is it not? I guess they made that one archaeologist into plural...
- Animats 6y ago
  I was expecting something higher performance. "Four wheeled processional chariot" is more like an open-top limo. The Roman Empire had good wagon technology - metal on metal bearings, lathe-turned hubs, etc.
kristopolous 6y ago
Looking at the author's other works, it's like a soft touch clickbait. I mean it's certainly there but it's an interesting balance, pretty tempered https://www.npr.org/people/348743421/becky-sullivan https://www.npr.org/people/348743421/becky-sullivan You hear about this from authors all the time who get disappointed in what the publishers choose for the book title. It's been like this for a while. Donald Normans "the design of everyday things" was initially "the psychology of everyday things" but psychology books don't sell well and apparently such errant superficialities matter. He's a respectable academic, shouldn't be subject to such stuff, but here we are nonetheless. I wish I could say content works without marketing and a bit of formulaic sensationalism for the title but it really doesn't perform without it. It appears to be kind of a requirement.
- kragen 6y ago
  I don't think it's that psychology books in general don't sell well. The nonfiction bestsellers list always has a lot of psychology books in it†! But when it was "POET," it got shelved in the psychology section of bookstores. So, if you went into a bookstore looking for help coping with your childhood traumas or marriage problem, you might run across this book about how industrial products and software were badly designed, and how to design them better, using new findings from cognitive psychology. But if you went into the bookstore to learn about how to design industrial products or software, you'd end up in the "design" or "software" section, so you wouldn't find it. ______ † Right now Amazon's nonfiction bestseller list https://www.amazon.com/Best-Sellers-Kindle-Store-Nonfiction/zgbs/digital-text/157325011 https://www.amazon.com/Best-Sellers-Kindle-Store-Nonfiction/... has "The Psychopath" at #1, "Mindset" at #2, "Master Your Emotions" at #18, "The 7 Habits" at #21, "Girl, Stop Apologizing" at #28, "13 Things Mentally Strong People Don't Do" at #31, "The Declutter Challenge" at #34, and "Thinking, Fast and Slow" at #50, plus a number of gray-area books; the New York Times has "Think Again" at #11. I think it's fair to say that psychology books sell a buttload.
f430 6y ago
this type of nitpicking pedantry is what makes HN shine

jeffgreco 6y ago

Some background on why we're seeing more Pompeii discoveries lately, as well as why looting is up as well: https://www.cnn.com/travel/article/pompeii-new-excavations-looting/index.html https://www.cnn.com/travel/article/pompeii-new-excavations-l...

anonu 6y ago

Pompeii is such a treasure. Part of me wants them to dig it all up and part of me thinks it should just stay covered - maybe for future generations in a couple more centuries.

wombatmobile 6y ago
I could possibly understand if you wanted the ruins to stay permanently covered, since that preserves the fidelity of the tragic occurrence for what it is. But why wait a while and then dig it up? What purpose does that serve?
- krick 6y ago
  A hope that better methods and technologies to reconstruct the past will be available, obviously.
  - wombatmobile 6y ago
    I see. How long should we wait?

kragen 6y ago

To add some historical context, chariots were the dominant battlefield technology throughout the Old World for centuries—maybe like the Bronze Age version of a main battle tank. But in the Iron Age (around 01000 BCE) they were displaced by massed formations with spears, which continued to be the dominant battlefield technology until the Gatling and Maxim guns in the late 01800s (CE). Pompeii is preserved, if that's the word, from 00079 CE, so at that point chariots had been primarily ceremonial for about a millennium, like cavalry is today.

aptwebapps 6y ago
Aren't there non-military uses for transportation?
- kragen 6y ago
  Yes, but the chariot originated as a military vehicle. Fast transportation was provided by horses, while bulk transportation was provided by boats, wagons, or, in China, a vehicle commonly called a "wheelbarrow", though it's very unlike the common modern device by the same name. The chariot, by virtue of holding two men, allowed an archer to travel at the speed of a galloping horse, while also protecting them to some extent from the arrows, axes, and swords of others. It was an unbeatable battlefield combination for centuries, and the accounts of Bronze Age battles—in Hatti, Egypt, India, and China—are basically accounts of battles between chariot formations. And then... it wasn't.
  - aptwebapps 6y ago
    My question was that while this particular chariot seems like it might have been used for ceremonial purposes, was that true for all chariots? The military context is interesting, but its surely only part of the picture. To put it a different way, after its military significance faded, was it actually relegated to purely ceremonial uses or was it a popular means of transportation?
    - kragen 6y ago

whateveracct 6y ago

The Macedonian Tau-Lambda?!

bill_mon 6y ago

This article is hidden behind a cookie wall, pressing "Agree and Continue" does nothing. Edit: tried opening in firejail and enableing javascript, this gave some kind of infinite loop reloading the page over and over.

gostsamo 6y ago
Click on "your choices".
mrob 6y ago
NPR articles can be accessed without the cookie-wall on the text only version of their site: https://text.npr.org/972118983 https://text.npr.org/972118983

forgotmypw17 6y ago

>Notably, the chariot is adorned with metal medallions depicting satyrs, nymphs and cupids, suggesting the possibility that it may have been used in marriage ceremonies. I know it's Italy, but that still sounds more like a Rolls or a Bentley than a Lamborghini to me :)

kylehotchkiss 6y ago
Sounds like amazing Italian vehicle design pedigree goes back way further than we originally thought!
aitchnyu 6y ago
I once read about a lightweight, two-wheeled chariot model which reckless rich men raced in the night and crashed. I was expecting something similar.

kbrtalan 6y ago

Sic transit, Gloria!

pseudolus 6y ago

The story of chariots in the Roman Empire is fascinating. However much we tend to associate sports obsession and violence with contemporary times the Romans/Byzantines had us long beat.[0][1] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nika_riots https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nika_riots [1] https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/blue-versus-green-rocking-the-byzantine-empire-113325928/ https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/blue-versus-green-roc...

tanylak 6y ago

Are you sure it wasn't a Ferrari?

credit_guy 6y ago

Where's the substance? > "It is an extraordinary discovery for the advancement of our knowledge of the ancient world," How exactly did this discovery advance our knowledge of the Roman civilization? We know more about the Roman civilization than about any other civilization until modern times. We know about their military organization, weapons, campaigns, wars, victories and defeats, we know about their legal framework, administration, constructions, culture, etc, etc. What exactly did this chariot teach us? A bunch of archeologists are throwing various superlatives to make us believe their work is important (and maybe convince us that more funding is warranted). Writers have a saying "show, don't tell". These guys should listen.