3 ms·

I don't see the distinction you're drawing. The ability for a user to get their data in and out of a system is crucial to a user's agency, as is the ability to

by bwclk 6y ago

I don't see the distinction you're drawing. The ability for a user to get their data in and out of a system is crucial to a user's agency, as is the ability to provision and tear down a service at a name they control. UNIX system administration skills aren't a prerequisite for either of those things. That they are largely necessary today is a failing not a feature.

mro_name 6y ago
I really appreciate your feedback and it helps me to understand how to lower the bar for entry and responsible usage. > UNIX system administration skills I refer to remote copying and ensuring proper permissions of a single file. And deleting in case. How more basic could it possibly be? The permissions may be embarrassing and peculiar for Microsofters, but adding other tooling doesn't simplify. Or as the saying goes, when swimming, you'll get wet.
- bwclk 6y ago
  > I refer to remote copying and ensuring proper permissions of a single file. And deleting in case. How more basic could it possibly be? Loads! There's a lot of work to do here, maybe it's not work you're interested in - that's ok - but there is definitely work to do. Are you familiar with things like Yunohost, Sandstorm, and the like? This is a nascent field, in app terms it's barely at untar-configure-make-install relative to an app-store one tap install. > The permissions may be embarrassing and peculiar for Microsofters, but adding other tooling doesn't simplify. I've had the experience of running a hosting control panel used by a couple of thousand users (organisations) and I can absolutely tell you that tooling does simplify things for users. It doesn't even have to be that good, every incremental step we made got more users using more things. Things they easily could have done themselves (they had SSH, Postgres, MySQL, Perl, PHP, etc). I'm not worried about folks not learning UNIX system admin skills. I am worried that one of the proprietary service stacks (in which I include local ones like Synology's App Center) will become a defacto platform in the same way proprietary OSes have won on the desktop and mobile. Fortunately they're not much good at the minute, but it's a blue ocean for them if they get better first. And to be clear, I'm not advocating that users should not have to learn anything. I don't know where the bar will end up, but I think it'll be far away from chmod, one way or another.
  - mro_name 6y ago
    > things like Yunohost, Sandstorm, and the like? They add dependencies, complexity and TOS to the stack. That's not appealing, even less so when it just promises to hide cp+chmod. > UNIX system admin skills You talk about a single copy + chmod like being rocket surgery. I know that FUD. It helps selling administration tools and services and keeping people dependant. But I am all about enabling individual agency. So in the end operating anything requires care or call it administration. This complexity can be hidden (comes with additional otherwise unnecessary dependencies and lock in) or reduced (my admitted radical approach). So I both lower the bar and educate that cp+chmod don't hurt. The hardest part is prbly downloading and using a ftp client.
    - bwclk 6y ago
      We have very different ideas as to what complexity is required versus necessary, and we also likely have very different ideas as to what the competitive landscape for a product like yours is. I do empathise with what you're saying, but there is nothing radical in your approach. It's a staid and common position in technical circles, and in my experience it lends itself to being blind sided. Hopefully you will prove me wrong but I think I'll be proven right.
      - mro_name 6y ago
        I appreciate very much that you bear with me. I'll do my best to offer a low-fat, no-sugar option to get stuff into the internet, that's absolutely layperson-friendly. And contribute to the fediverse if wanted. And even the silos. Very few steps, no unexplained jargon, very few core concepts. Ideally no running code facing other users (alas, the search). Use existing tools, no NIH. Align with what the hosters explain and sell. But absolutely zero dependencies that might need patches (except a webserver). No node, PHP etc. No DB. A minimal trusted computing base. You can simply copy the whole site to backup/mirror it.
    - bwclk 6y ago
      I'm going to have one last go. Low friction network services are inevitable. There will be point and click, or since it's 2021, tap, interfaces for allocating resources (compute, DNS, storage, etc) to services. The technology stack that makes that happen can be composed of open standards, protocols, and software, or it can be a proprietary gated one. Either way it'll probably be built on UNIX, it's just a question of whether we'll get a seat at the table, or if it'll be UNIX in the iPhone sense.

by bwclk 6y ago

mro_name 6y ago

I really appreciate your feedback and it helps me to understand how to lower the bar for entry and responsible usage. > UNIX system administration skills I refer to remote copying and ensuring proper permissions of a single file. And deleting in case. How more basic could it possibly be? The permissions may be embarrassing and peculiar for Microsofters, but adding other tooling doesn't simplify. Or as the saying goes, when swimming, you'll get wet.

bwclk 6y ago
> I refer to remote copying and ensuring proper permissions of a single file. And deleting in case. How more basic could it possibly be? Loads! There's a lot of work to do here, maybe it's not work you're interested in - that's ok - but there is definitely work to do. Are you familiar with things like Yunohost, Sandstorm, and the like? This is a nascent field, in app terms it's barely at untar-configure-make-install relative to an app-store one tap install. > The permissions may be embarrassing and peculiar for Microsofters, but adding other tooling doesn't simplify. I've had the experience of running a hosting control panel used by a couple of thousand users (organisations) and I can absolutely tell you that tooling does simplify things for users. It doesn't even have to be that good, every incremental step we made got more users using more things. Things they easily could have done themselves (they had SSH, Postgres, MySQL, Perl, PHP, etc). I'm not worried about folks not learning UNIX system admin skills. I am worried that one of the proprietary service stacks (in which I include local ones like Synology's App Center) will become a defacto platform in the same way proprietary OSes have won on the desktop and mobile. Fortunately they're not much good at the minute, but it's a blue ocean for them if they get better first. And to be clear, I'm not advocating that users should not have to learn anything. I don't know where the bar will end up, but I think it'll be far away from chmod, one way or another.
- mro_name 6y ago
  > things like Yunohost, Sandstorm, and the like? They add dependencies, complexity and TOS to the stack. That's not appealing, even less so when it just promises to hide cp+chmod. > UNIX system admin skills You talk about a single copy + chmod like being rocket surgery. I know that FUD. It helps selling administration tools and services and keeping people dependant. But I am all about enabling individual agency. So in the end operating anything requires care or call it administration. This complexity can be hidden (comes with additional otherwise unnecessary dependencies and lock in) or reduced (my admitted radical approach). So I both lower the bar and educate that cp+chmod don't hurt. The hardest part is prbly downloading and using a ftp client.
  - bwclk 6y ago
    We have very different ideas as to what complexity is required versus necessary, and we also likely have very different ideas as to what the competitive landscape for a product like yours is. I do empathise with what you're saying, but there is nothing radical in your approach. It's a staid and common position in technical circles, and in my experience it lends itself to being blind sided. Hopefully you will prove me wrong but I think I'll be proven right.
    - mro_name 6y ago
      I appreciate very much that you bear with me. I'll do my best to offer a low-fat, no-sugar option to get stuff into the internet, that's absolutely layperson-friendly. And contribute to the fediverse if wanted. And even the silos. Very few steps, no unexplained jargon, very few core concepts. Ideally no running code facing other users (alas, the search). Use existing tools, no NIH. Align with what the hosters explain and sell. But absolutely zero dependencies that might need patches (except a webserver). No node, PHP etc. No DB. A minimal trusted computing base. You can simply copy the whole site to backup/mirror it.
  - bwclk 6y ago
    I'm going to have one last go. Low friction network services are inevitable. There will be point and click, or since it's 2021, tap, interfaces for allocating resources (compute, DNS, storage, etc) to services. The technology stack that makes that happen can be composed of open standards, protocols, and software, or it can be a proprietary gated one. Either way it'll probably be built on UNIX, it's just a question of whether we'll get a seat at the table, or if it'll be UNIX in the iPhone sense.