7 ms·

Apple works with China but not the FBI (2016)

83 points by marshmallow_12 6y ago

ycnews 6y ago
2016.
IndrekR 6y ago
(2016)
t-writescode 6y ago
So, question. Does China afford people and companies the same ability to “not work with the FBI” that the United States does? Because at the end of the day, Apple is following US law by refusing to freely hand things over. That’s what warrants, etc, are for. In the US we intentionally make it theoretically hard for law enforcement to do their job so they’re theoretically more likely to get the right person if the full flow of law enforcement, all the way through the courts with capable, well-funded and appropriately timed lawyers are allowed to do their jobs.
- adamcstephens 6y ago
  Apple isn’t required by law to contest the requests from law enforcement. They could provide assistance without even telling the target. For example, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third-party_doctrine https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third-party_doctrine You are correct that they can’t refuse in China, but they’ve chosen to fight in the US.
  - CharlesW 6y ago
    Only if you consider complying with most U.S. government requests—all requests with a valid legal basis—"fighting".[1] For example, Apple complied with U.S. government requests in 90% of cases in 1H'2019.[2] [1] https://www.apple.com/privacy/government-information-requests/ https://www.apple.com/privacy/government-information-request... [2] https://www.businessinsider.com/apple-complies-percent-us-government-requests-customer-data-2020-1 https://www.businessinsider.com/apple-complies-percent-us-go...
  - t-writescode 6y ago
    Apple is allowed by law to contest them, though and so they are following the law.
- wyldfire 6y ago
  Apple doesn't own the device in question and the FBI wasn't asking for Apple to hand over information in their custody. That said, the request is beyond the pale and they were right to refuse.
tedunangst 6y ago
Are China and the FBI asking Apple to do the same thing?
wyldfire 6y ago
> STAFF WRITER Thought for sure this was an op-ed. But, it helps to know the context was this was back in 2016. Think about this: if only the snapdragon based devices were as well-designed as the Apple SoCs, the focus back then (and now) wouldn't be on just Apple - it would also be on Qualcomm and device OEMs. I don't prefer iOS but I really wish Android's security & privacy were as good. It's slowly getting closer. But Apple is raising the bar again - now with anti-tracking features.
asperous 6y ago
This makes sense to me, there is legal and cultural differences. China is a sovereign country, and Apple is just playing by the rules in that country, one that is rooted in authoritarianism and surveillance. In America, although companies could voluntarily work with law enforcement, the cultural norm and historical momentum is rooted in pushing back against big government and the people’s role in checking the government’s power. There are many different viewpoints around this and those ideas constantly changing. It should be no surprise though, that Apple may have different strategies in different counties.
- marshmallow_12 6y ago
  it is a slap in the face for the FBI and by extension, the us government that Apple has more respect for China then the FBI
  - wsinks 6y ago
    I'm not sure I understand how following American law = disrespect for an American institution..
  - ohdannyboy 6y ago
    It is not disrespectful to the FBI or the government to expect that they play by their own rules. China is being dealt with like an oppressive dictatorship and the FBI is being interacted with like a law enforcement agency in a functioning democracy.
  - user-the-name 6y ago
    Is it a slap in the face to use the freedom you have been given? Would you rather not live in a country where cooperating with the FBI is optional?
unix_fan 6y ago
Apple does comply with the FBI, and a lot of other governments, when it comes to data requests.
- CharlesW 6y ago
  Absolutely.[1] Apple complied with U.S. government requests in 90% of cases in 1H'2019.2[2] [1] "Our legal team reviews requests to ensure that the requests have a valid legal basis. If they do, we comply by providing data responsive to the request." https://www.apple.com/privacy/government-information-requests/ https://www.apple.com/privacy/government-information-request... [2] https://www.businessinsider.com/apple-complies-percent-us-government-requests-customer-data-2020-1 https://www.businessinsider.com/apple-complies-percent-us-go...
legerdemain 6y ago
Palantir's leader, Dr. Alexzander Karp, was, of course, entirely right in his prescient letter to investors earlier this year calling other big tech companies "potentially treasonous." The Apples of the world have lost sight of who actually holds their reins. We need a strong national leader to bring them to heel and remind them that serving the needs of the Western people and states is far more "moral" (and what do the Apples know about "morals"?!) than serving the needs of authoritatorian states overseas.
- wyldfire 6y ago
  We should take tips on morality from the spies and their contractors. If only we could have a more authoritarian government! Apple's design secures millions of US Americans devices and the help the FBI requested would irreparably harm that security.
- Lammy 6y ago
  I wonder if leaders in China’s or Russia’s spheres of influence say identical statements about us? Maybe some more surveillance will help us all make some order out of this chaos.
ceilingcorner 6y ago
I’d have a lot less issue with companies selling to China if they didn’t simultaneously pretend to be moral forces for good. Michael Jordan understood this years ago and I will forever have more respect for him than Lebron and his selective activism. As they say, a man’s true character comes to light in hardship; and there is nothing difficult about adopting the moral crusade of the day back here in the so-called Free World. What matters is how you act when things are difficult, when you have something to lose.
- jeswin 6y ago
  Google's withdrawal from China in 2010 stands out as perhaps the most eminently courageous move a technology mega-corp has made against a powerful nation state. The tragedy is that the world didn't care - signaling perhaps to all future decisions makers that, well, the we don't really care. Not only did we not appreciate the significance of what happened or reward the deed, we have adopted in these peak social media years a style of criticism that blackens every shade of gray. No leadership will ever make Google's mistake again.
  - CharlesW 6y ago
    The lore is that Google heroically pulled out of China because they wouldn't compromise the purity of their search results. The reality is somewhat more complex—in short, Google played chicken with China and lost. "In the end, though, it wasn’t censorship or competition that drove Google out of China. It was a far-reaching hacking attack known as Operation Aurora that targeted everything from Google’s intellectual property to the Gmail accounts of Chinese human rights activists. The attack, which Google said came from within China, pushed company leadership over the edge." https://www.technologyreview.com/2018/12/19/138307/how-google-took-on-china-and-lost/ https://www.technologyreview.com/2018/12/19/138307/how-googl...
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - tomComb 6y ago
bastard_op 6y ago
Tell China no, they extricate you from the country, and rewrite history that you never existed. Tell the FBI no, they'll posture, threaten, and sue, but not do anything too extreme that can't be payed off with lobbying and other backdoor political activity. Apple won't bite the rather large hand that feeds them, or manufactures 100% all of their overpriced gadgets that supply them profits from the rest of the world. China already has all their intellectual property handed over gracefully, they really don't need Apple other than as a brand.
- Judgmentality 6y ago
  > they really don't need Apple other than as a brand I'd say that alone makes Apple worthwhile to China. I don't think China will be able to make a global brand like Apple in my lifetime.
  - Mediterraneo10 6y ago
    > I don't think China will be able to make a global brand like Apple in my lifetime. In my part of Europe (and whenever traveling in Africa), I see more Huawei ads in the street on any given day than Apple ones. Apple is a global brand, but it is also a premium global brand, meaning it is only visible where salaries are high enough for people to afford it. Huawei and Xiaomi, on the other hand, are both global and affordable to even the developing world.
    - Judgmentality 6y ago
      All your points are valid and I'm not saying China can't make a brand. But you're comparing Pepsi to Coke. Everybody knows which one is more desirable.
      - Mediterraneo10 6y ago
        "Pepsi" is now the generic word for "soft drink" in a number of countries. So, not a good example. And you overestimate how much more desirable Apple seems over Chinese brands in the developing world: millions and millions of people have never even seen an Apple device nor any advertising for it, while Chinese products are their world.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
jeffrogers 6y ago
Hmm. My first thought is that this is not China. We have different expectations here and ones that sometimes run counter to the conveniences US law enforcement would like to have. Whatever happens in China, my expectations are that our goverment should work differently here and Apple should as well.
- tomComb 6y ago
  Well, yeah, but that puts all their talk about privacy in a different light. They sell it like it's a moral principle or a human right, not just what works best for them in certain Western markets.
  - jeffrogers 6y ago
    Sure, but regardless of how they justify what they do I only care that their domestic actions are consistent with US laws, traditions, and expectations.
jonplackett 6y ago
—? NYT needs to sort out the em dash in their headline.
gumby 6y ago
Notefor dang: this is from 2016 and should say (2016) Seems like a lot of posture and innuendo without a substantive argument. I was hoping to read that Apple was cooperating with Chinese security forces but nothing is actually said on this topic. At least it does mention the removal of some apps relating to Tibet; since then Apple has done the same in HK. I don't know if they have done so in other countries (removed apps due to political pressure). But the Chinese SKUs have the same security mechanisms as the US SKUs and there is no evidence that the FBI faces any greater or less challenges in accessing phone data. Germany also has a "local data storage" requirement but I guess they aren't scary like China is.
- wtmt 6y ago
  On removing apps due to government requests, both Apple and Google do it in the territories they operate in. Over the last year or so, the Indian government has had several tens of Chinese origin apps banned on these stores (including apps like TikTok and PUBG, among many others).
  - gumby 6y ago
    Russia says they are going to require certain russia-specific apps preloaded on all phones sold in Russia. In wonder what Apple will do. Lack of bundled crapware was one of the selling points for the original iPhone.
fudged71 6y ago
Nice try FBI
mensetmanusman 6y ago
Slaves in the supply chain...
subsaharancoder 6y ago
I recall talking to an ex Apple employee who basically said the same thing, Apple really has no moral standing lecturing other companies on privacy when it has essentially capitulated to the Chinese government.
wtmt 6y ago
What’s more frustrating with Apple is that a lot of data on iCloud is still not encrypted in a way where Apple doesn’t have access to the decryption key (and hence cannot hand over meaningful data). This was reported by Reuters last year as being due to pressure from the FBI. [1] There is an argument to be made for convenience (especially for data recovery when a device is lost) as a contrasting factor when we talk about end to end encryption, but Apple doesn’t even give that choice to the user. [1]: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-apple-fbi-icloud-exclusive-idUSKBN1ZK1CT https://www.reuters.com/article/us-apple-fbi-icloud-exclusiv...
rStar 6y ago
due to user expectations, no doubt

ycnews 6y ago

2016.

IndrekR 6y ago

(2016)

t-writescode 6y ago

So, question. Does China afford people and companies the same ability to “not work with the FBI” that the United States does? Because at the end of the day, Apple is following US law by refusing to freely hand things over. That’s what warrants, etc, are for. In the US we intentionally make it theoretically hard for law enforcement to do their job so they’re theoretically more likely to get the right person if the full flow of law enforcement, all the way through the courts with capable, well-funded and appropriately timed lawyers are allowed to do their jobs.

adamcstephens 6y ago
Apple isn’t required by law to contest the requests from law enforcement. They could provide assistance without even telling the target. For example, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third-party_doctrine https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third-party_doctrine You are correct that they can’t refuse in China, but they’ve chosen to fight in the US.
- CharlesW 6y ago
  Only if you consider complying with most U.S. government requests—all requests with a valid legal basis—"fighting".[1] For example, Apple complied with U.S. government requests in 90% of cases in 1H'2019.[2] [1] https://www.apple.com/privacy/government-information-requests/ https://www.apple.com/privacy/government-information-request... [2] https://www.businessinsider.com/apple-complies-percent-us-government-requests-customer-data-2020-1 https://www.businessinsider.com/apple-complies-percent-us-go...
- t-writescode 6y ago
  Apple is allowed by law to contest them, though and so they are following the law.
wyldfire 6y ago
Apple doesn't own the device in question and the FBI wasn't asking for Apple to hand over information in their custody. That said, the request is beyond the pale and they were right to refuse.

tedunangst 6y ago

Are China and the FBI asking Apple to do the same thing?

wyldfire 6y ago

> STAFF WRITER Thought for sure this was an op-ed. But, it helps to know the context was this was back in 2016. Think about this: if only the snapdragon based devices were as well-designed as the Apple SoCs, the focus back then (and now) wouldn't be on just Apple - it would also be on Qualcomm and device OEMs. I don't prefer iOS but I really wish Android's security & privacy were as good. It's slowly getting closer. But Apple is raising the bar again - now with anti-tracking features.

asperous 6y ago

This makes sense to me, there is legal and cultural differences. China is a sovereign country, and Apple is just playing by the rules in that country, one that is rooted in authoritarianism and surveillance. In America, although companies could voluntarily work with law enforcement, the cultural norm and historical momentum is rooted in pushing back against big government and the people’s role in checking the government’s power. There are many different viewpoints around this and those ideas constantly changing. It should be no surprise though, that Apple may have different strategies in different counties.

marshmallow_12 6y ago
it is a slap in the face for the FBI and by extension, the us government that Apple has more respect for China then the FBI
- wsinks 6y ago
  I'm not sure I understand how following American law = disrespect for an American institution..
- ohdannyboy 6y ago
  It is not disrespectful to the FBI or the government to expect that they play by their own rules. China is being dealt with like an oppressive dictatorship and the FBI is being interacted with like a law enforcement agency in a functioning democracy.
- user-the-name 6y ago
  Is it a slap in the face to use the freedom you have been given? Would you rather not live in a country where cooperating with the FBI is optional?

unix_fan 6y ago

Apple does comply with the FBI, and a lot of other governments, when it comes to data requests.

CharlesW 6y ago
Absolutely.[1] Apple complied with U.S. government requests in 90% of cases in 1H'2019.2[2] [1] "Our legal team reviews requests to ensure that the requests have a valid legal basis. If they do, we comply by providing data responsive to the request." https://www.apple.com/privacy/government-information-requests/ https://www.apple.com/privacy/government-information-request... [2] https://www.businessinsider.com/apple-complies-percent-us-government-requests-customer-data-2020-1 https://www.businessinsider.com/apple-complies-percent-us-go...

legerdemain 6y ago

Palantir's leader, Dr. Alexzander Karp, was, of course, entirely right in his prescient letter to investors earlier this year calling other big tech companies "potentially treasonous." The Apples of the world have lost sight of who actually holds their reins. We need a strong national leader to bring them to heel and remind them that serving the needs of the Western people and states is far more "moral" (and what do the Apples know about "morals"?!) than serving the needs of authoritatorian states overseas.

wyldfire 6y ago
We should take tips on morality from the spies and their contractors. If only we could have a more authoritarian government! Apple's design secures millions of US Americans devices and the help the FBI requested would irreparably harm that security.
Lammy 6y ago
I wonder if leaders in China’s or Russia’s spheres of influence say identical statements about us? Maybe some more surveillance will help us all make some order out of this chaos.

ceilingcorner 6y ago

I’d have a lot less issue with companies selling to China if they didn’t simultaneously pretend to be moral forces for good. Michael Jordan understood this years ago and I will forever have more respect for him than Lebron and his selective activism. As they say, a man’s true character comes to light in hardship; and there is nothing difficult about adopting the moral crusade of the day back here in the so-called Free World. What matters is how you act when things are difficult, when you have something to lose.

jeswin 6y ago
Google's withdrawal from China in 2010 stands out as perhaps the most eminently courageous move a technology mega-corp has made against a powerful nation state. The tragedy is that the world didn't care - signaling perhaps to all future decisions makers that, well, the we don't really care. Not only did we not appreciate the significance of what happened or reward the deed, we have adopted in these peak social media years a style of criticism that blackens every shade of gray. No leadership will ever make Google's mistake again.
- CharlesW 6y ago
  The lore is that Google heroically pulled out of China because they wouldn't compromise the purity of their search results. The reality is somewhat more complex—in short, Google played chicken with China and lost. "In the end, though, it wasn’t censorship or competition that drove Google out of China. It was a far-reaching hacking attack known as Operation Aurora that targeted everything from Google’s intellectual property to the Gmail accounts of Chinese human rights activists. The attack, which Google said came from within China, pushed company leadership over the edge." https://www.technologyreview.com/2018/12/19/138307/how-google-took-on-china-and-lost/ https://www.technologyreview.com/2018/12/19/138307/how-googl...
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - tomComb 6y ago

bastard_op 6y ago

Tell China no, they extricate you from the country, and rewrite history that you never existed. Tell the FBI no, they'll posture, threaten, and sue, but not do anything too extreme that can't be payed off with lobbying and other backdoor political activity. Apple won't bite the rather large hand that feeds them, or manufactures 100% all of their overpriced gadgets that supply them profits from the rest of the world. China already has all their intellectual property handed over gracefully, they really don't need Apple other than as a brand.

Judgmentality 6y ago
> they really don't need Apple other than as a brand I'd say that alone makes Apple worthwhile to China. I don't think China will be able to make a global brand like Apple in my lifetime.
- Mediterraneo10 6y ago
  > I don't think China will be able to make a global brand like Apple in my lifetime. In my part of Europe (and whenever traveling in Africa), I see more Huawei ads in the street on any given day than Apple ones. Apple is a global brand, but it is also a premium global brand, meaning it is only visible where salaries are high enough for people to afford it. Huawei and Xiaomi, on the other hand, are both global and affordable to even the developing world.
  - Judgmentality 6y ago
    All your points are valid and I'm not saying China can't make a brand. But you're comparing Pepsi to Coke. Everybody knows which one is more desirable.
    - Mediterraneo10 6y ago
      "Pepsi" is now the generic word for "soft drink" in a number of countries. So, not a good example. And you overestimate how much more desirable Apple seems over Chinese brands in the developing world: millions and millions of people have never even seen an Apple device nor any advertising for it, while Chinese products are their world.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

jeffrogers 6y ago

Hmm. My first thought is that this is not China. We have different expectations here and ones that sometimes run counter to the conveniences US law enforcement would like to have. Whatever happens in China, my expectations are that our goverment should work differently here and Apple should as well.

tomComb 6y ago
Well, yeah, but that puts all their talk about privacy in a different light. They sell it like it's a moral principle or a human right, not just what works best for them in certain Western markets.
- jeffrogers 6y ago
  Sure, but regardless of how they justify what they do I only care that their domestic actions are consistent with US laws, traditions, and expectations.

jonplackett 6y ago

—? NYT needs to sort out the em dash in their headline.

gumby 6y ago

Notefor dang: this is from 2016 and should say (2016) Seems like a lot of posture and innuendo without a substantive argument. I was hoping to read that Apple was cooperating with Chinese security forces but nothing is actually said on this topic. At least it does mention the removal of some apps relating to Tibet; since then Apple has done the same in HK. I don't know if they have done so in other countries (removed apps due to political pressure). But the Chinese SKUs have the same security mechanisms as the US SKUs and there is no evidence that the FBI faces any greater or less challenges in accessing phone data. Germany also has a "local data storage" requirement but I guess they aren't scary like China is.

wtmt 6y ago
On removing apps due to government requests, both Apple and Google do it in the territories they operate in. Over the last year or so, the Indian government has had several tens of Chinese origin apps banned on these stores (including apps like TikTok and PUBG, among many others).
- gumby 6y ago
  Russia says they are going to require certain russia-specific apps preloaded on all phones sold in Russia. In wonder what Apple will do. Lack of bundled crapware was one of the selling points for the original iPhone.

fudged71 6y ago

Nice try FBI

mensetmanusman 6y ago

Slaves in the supply chain...

subsaharancoder 6y ago

I recall talking to an ex Apple employee who basically said the same thing, Apple really has no moral standing lecturing other companies on privacy when it has essentially capitulated to the Chinese government.

wtmt 6y ago

What’s more frustrating with Apple is that a lot of data on iCloud is still not encrypted in a way where Apple doesn’t have access to the decryption key (and hence cannot hand over meaningful data). This was reported by Reuters last year as being due to pressure from the FBI. [1] There is an argument to be made for convenience (especially for data recovery when a device is lost) as a contrasting factor when we talk about end to end encryption, but Apple doesn’t even give that choice to the user. [1]: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-apple-fbi-icloud-exclusive-idUSKBN1ZK1CT https://www.reuters.com/article/us-apple-fbi-icloud-exclusiv...

rStar 6y ago

due to user expectations, no doubt