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I encountered a similar situation to one mentioned in the article on Etsy - a scammer made a fake store for a real shop in Brooklyn selling high-end aprons. To

by PEJOE 6y ago

I encountered a similar situation to one mentioned in the article on Etsy - a scammer made a fake store for a real shop in Brooklyn selling high-end aprons. To me it looked like the legitimate web-presense of the store. After placing the order I received no response, and after disputing the charge a month later they sent a tracking number. (The package never came, and a helpful UPS rep broke the rules to tell me the tracking number wasn't even addressed to me - a saving grace and made me wonder if tracking numbers from legitimate purchases are resold to run this scam.) Etsy refused to take any part in helping with the refund, and despite deleting the store they refused to tell paypal to refund people's (including my) purchases. Paypal had the tracking number, and could ask UPS for the address and recipient, but refused to help and made me feel like I was the scammer for wanting my money back. They insisted to the end that they could do nothing, despite knowing the Etsy storefront was banned and that the seller never sent me a package. I would have been out $100 if not for Chase, who did the chargeback and got paypal in line. I will never use paypal or Etsy again, as it is clear they don't care about criminals using their platform to steal money from trusting consumers. The lack of response from Paypal in this article is no surprise - a lot of their business comes from people using their platform to steal from their users. Can anyone who works at Etsy or Paypal explain why this system is so broken and anti-consumer?

croutonwagon 6y ago
This is why I stopped using PayPal back in the early 00s. They would staunchly side with a charge/seller over their actual customer for any reason and just frustrate the process. Even when their company had all the info, like eBay purchases. People say companies like American Express are a scam. But I can, and have in these instances just filed a charge back and walked. To the point that if a place won’t take American Express (like Costco) I’ll just move along. The number of times I’ve avoided scams and headaches because I can get a rep on in under 5 minutes is incredible. Everything from someone be swiping my numbers and running up charges online (that the store won’t discuss even when I give them the charge auth #), to car rental companies playing games with tolls when traveling in places like Denver. It’s frankly odd to me it’s not the standard.
- gumby 6y ago
  > People say companies like American Express are a scam Have not heard this! I agree with you: Amex is great at looking after their customers (card holders) and are so jealous about their info (for charge cards, don’t know about credit) that they share much less. I do use visa for local small businesses (family restaurants etc) because the fee Amex charges merchants is higher than the others’. But especially online, their guarantees are worth it.
- nneonneo 6y ago
  I got screwed in the opposite direction. I sold an online service with PayPal, delivered the goods (files to set up a web forum), only to have the client file a fraudulent chargeback claiming they never received the site files (they used the files to set up a successful site which they are still using; I pointed this out to the PayPal rep and they ignored it). I never got a cent and actually had a negative balance thanks to the fees. It’s probably very hard to be PayPal, but the incident left a bad taste in my mouth. I no longer accept or send any transactions via their platform.
  - kenjackson 6y ago
    Had almost the exact same thing happen to me selling via EBay and PayPal. The buyer said it wasn’t them that bought it, but they corresponded via EBay and sent payment via PayPal. The unauthorized user had both passwords? PayPals response was basically that we just side with the buyer on all digital goods transactions. I’m moving everything off of PayPal now.
- delecti 6y ago
  I've heard a lot of complaints that Paypal staunchly sides with the customer over retailers. I think it's just that sometimes scammers beat the system, and Paypal is occasionally wrong in either directions.
- maccard 6y ago
  I've bought and sold plenty on ebay using paypal exclusively and can't say my experience is the same. As a buyer, I know that opening a paypal dispute they'll side with me, and as a seller I know in screwed if the buyer does so. Two anecdotes - I bought a phone that was "new" and when it arrived it was locked to a carrier I wasn't on. I tried to get it unlocked officially, but apple or the carrier wouldn't help. Seller said no refunds. Paypal sided with me because they didn't explicitly put it in the correct ebay category. As a seller, I sold a processor, listed it with 2nd class signed for postage and the buyer asked if I could ship it first class (next day vs 3-5 days). I said sure, paid the difference out of pocket and uploaded the tracking number. 24 hours later I got a paypal dispute saying item not received, that it wasn't sent by the right means. He had signed for it, I had the tracking. No dice, I was out a £200 part. Paypal so heavily sides with the buyer in every scenario, it's why it's popular!
smbullet 6y ago
I've also been scammed with Ebay + PayPal. Now that I know how useless PayPal is I will never use them again. Never had any issues (or heard of people having issues) with requesting a chargeback with Citi or Chase.
Sebb767 6y ago
Counter-Point: I've had three disputes resolved via PayPal and all in my favour (fairly, I want to add). In fact, I've heard quite a few small online traders refuse PayPal, as they've been scammed in the past (as sellers) and PayPal did not side with them. I'm not a fan of PayPal for other reasons and this is anecdotal as well, but in my experience PayPal is very biased towards the buyer.
BostonEnginerd 6y ago
I had a similar experience with Kickstarter. I helped fund a project and the guy took the money and ran: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/500095192/md-pen-minimaldurable-pen https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/500095192/md-pen-minima... https://www.crowdfundinsider.com/2013/02/9807-kickstarter-fraud-md-pen/ https://www.crowdfundinsider.com/2013/02/9807-kickstarter-fr... When I reached out to them, they basically shrugged their shoulders and said there was nothing they could do about scammers ripping people off. Unfortunately, I was patient enough that I had run out the clock on the charge back from my bank. After this, I'll never use Kickstarter again.
loeg 6y ago
I've had a similar scam experience on Etsy. The seller initially provided a bogus tracking number from a foreign country (the purported location of the store) and sandbagged delivery for 1.5 months to wait out most of the period during which consumers can issue credit card chargebacks. Only after opening an Etsy non-delivery case did they send an item (with a different tracking number, from the US). The delivered item didn't match the advertisement (both in quality and size). And the seller will not provide return instructions or issue a refund. I'm still contesting the charge with Chase but Etsy's lack of help here has burned it for me as a platform.
- PEJOE 6y ago
  Loeg, I think this exactly what they did to me - I had good luck with chase (CSR if it matters?). Submitted the chargeback in early Dec and received confirmation at the end of the month. I had all the tracking information, recordings, etc, but was never asked for any information from chase. I had tried to go through PayPal’s dispute mechanism first around dec 5 - so 43 days after the order was placed. Hope some of this is helpful to you. I think Etsy should own the refund process when they detect these fake stores and scams. If they can delete the store, they should be able to have PayPal reverse all the charges associated with it, right?
  - loeg 6y ago
    One interesting thing I learned about Etsy from my experience: you can only open an issue/case once on any given order! So in my experience, I opened an "item not delivered" (as opposed to: some other problem with the delivered product) case when nothing showed up after 1.5 months; THEN the merchant sent the item; THEN when it arrived I closed the issue as it had been delivered. But five seconds later when I opened the packaging and noticed the item was total garbage, I could not open another case on the order. Bah. I think the scam sellers on Etsy know this, and intentionally induce customers to open a case they can cheaply satisfy, but will prevent contesting real problems with the purchase later (on the Etsy platform). Mine was also charged to a Chase CSR, amusingly enough! The merchant disputed the chargeback, so I've had to supply evidence to Chase, and they're still deliberating internally. I don't care about the money lost (~$80), but I really don't want the fucking scammer to get it! Totally agree that Etsy should own refunding when they detect fake stores and scams. I don't know what their relationship with Paypal is, but it's the right thing to do as a platform.

by PEJOE 6y ago

croutonwagon 6y ago

This is why I stopped using PayPal back in the early 00s. They would staunchly side with a charge/seller over their actual customer for any reason and just frustrate the process. Even when their company had all the info, like eBay purchases. People say companies like American Express are a scam. But I can, and have in these instances just filed a charge back and walked. To the point that if a place won’t take American Express (like Costco) I’ll just move along. The number of times I’ve avoided scams and headaches because I can get a rep on in under 5 minutes is incredible. Everything from someone be swiping my numbers and running up charges online (that the store won’t discuss even when I give them the charge auth #), to car rental companies playing games with tolls when traveling in places like Denver. It’s frankly odd to me it’s not the standard.

gumby 6y ago
> People say companies like American Express are a scam Have not heard this! I agree with you: Amex is great at looking after their customers (card holders) and are so jealous about their info (for charge cards, don’t know about credit) that they share much less. I do use visa for local small businesses (family restaurants etc) because the fee Amex charges merchants is higher than the others’. But especially online, their guarantees are worth it.
nneonneo 6y ago
I got screwed in the opposite direction. I sold an online service with PayPal, delivered the goods (files to set up a web forum), only to have the client file a fraudulent chargeback claiming they never received the site files (they used the files to set up a successful site which they are still using; I pointed this out to the PayPal rep and they ignored it). I never got a cent and actually had a negative balance thanks to the fees. It’s probably very hard to be PayPal, but the incident left a bad taste in my mouth. I no longer accept or send any transactions via their platform.
- kenjackson 6y ago
  Had almost the exact same thing happen to me selling via EBay and PayPal. The buyer said it wasn’t them that bought it, but they corresponded via EBay and sent payment via PayPal. The unauthorized user had both passwords? PayPals response was basically that we just side with the buyer on all digital goods transactions. I’m moving everything off of PayPal now.
delecti 6y ago
I've heard a lot of complaints that Paypal staunchly sides with the customer over retailers. I think it's just that sometimes scammers beat the system, and Paypal is occasionally wrong in either directions.
maccard 6y ago
I've bought and sold plenty on ebay using paypal exclusively and can't say my experience is the same. As a buyer, I know that opening a paypal dispute they'll side with me, and as a seller I know in screwed if the buyer does so. Two anecdotes - I bought a phone that was "new" and when it arrived it was locked to a carrier I wasn't on. I tried to get it unlocked officially, but apple or the carrier wouldn't help. Seller said no refunds. Paypal sided with me because they didn't explicitly put it in the correct ebay category. As a seller, I sold a processor, listed it with 2nd class signed for postage and the buyer asked if I could ship it first class (next day vs 3-5 days). I said sure, paid the difference out of pocket and uploaded the tracking number. 24 hours later I got a paypal dispute saying item not received, that it wasn't sent by the right means. He had signed for it, I had the tracking. No dice, I was out a £200 part. Paypal so heavily sides with the buyer in every scenario, it's why it's popular!

smbullet 6y ago

I've also been scammed with Ebay + PayPal. Now that I know how useless PayPal is I will never use them again. Never had any issues (or heard of people having issues) with requesting a chargeback with Citi or Chase.

Sebb767 6y ago

Counter-Point: I've had three disputes resolved via PayPal and all in my favour (fairly, I want to add). In fact, I've heard quite a few small online traders refuse PayPal, as they've been scammed in the past (as sellers) and PayPal did not side with them. I'm not a fan of PayPal for other reasons and this is anecdotal as well, but in my experience PayPal is very biased towards the buyer.

BostonEnginerd 6y ago

I had a similar experience with Kickstarter. I helped fund a project and the guy took the money and ran: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/500095192/md-pen-minimaldurable-pen https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/500095192/md-pen-minima... https://www.crowdfundinsider.com/2013/02/9807-kickstarter-fraud-md-pen/ https://www.crowdfundinsider.com/2013/02/9807-kickstarter-fr... When I reached out to them, they basically shrugged their shoulders and said there was nothing they could do about scammers ripping people off. Unfortunately, I was patient enough that I had run out the clock on the charge back from my bank. After this, I'll never use Kickstarter again.

loeg 6y ago

I've had a similar scam experience on Etsy. The seller initially provided a bogus tracking number from a foreign country (the purported location of the store) and sandbagged delivery for 1.5 months to wait out most of the period during which consumers can issue credit card chargebacks. Only after opening an Etsy non-delivery case did they send an item (with a different tracking number, from the US). The delivered item didn't match the advertisement (both in quality and size). And the seller will not provide return instructions or issue a refund. I'm still contesting the charge with Chase but Etsy's lack of help here has burned it for me as a platform.

PEJOE 6y ago
Loeg, I think this exactly what they did to me - I had good luck with chase (CSR if it matters?). Submitted the chargeback in early Dec and received confirmation at the end of the month. I had all the tracking information, recordings, etc, but was never asked for any information from chase. I had tried to go through PayPal’s dispute mechanism first around dec 5 - so 43 days after the order was placed. Hope some of this is helpful to you. I think Etsy should own the refund process when they detect these fake stores and scams. If they can delete the store, they should be able to have PayPal reverse all the charges associated with it, right?
- loeg 6y ago
  One interesting thing I learned about Etsy from my experience: you can only open an issue/case once on any given order! So in my experience, I opened an "item not delivered" (as opposed to: some other problem with the delivered product) case when nothing showed up after 1.5 months; THEN the merchant sent the item; THEN when it arrived I closed the issue as it had been delivered. But five seconds later when I opened the packaging and noticed the item was total garbage, I could not open another case on the order. Bah. I think the scam sellers on Etsy know this, and intentionally induce customers to open a case they can cheaply satisfy, but will prevent contesting real problems with the purchase later (on the Etsy platform). Mine was also charged to a Chase CSR, amusingly enough! The merchant disputed the chargeback, so I've had to supply evidence to Chase, and they're still deliberating internally. I don't care about the money lost (~$80), but I really don't want the fucking scammer to get it! Totally agree that Etsy should own refunding when they detect fake stores and scams. I don't know what their relationship with Paypal is, but it's the right thing to do as a platform.