7 ms·

Norman Golb, Dead Sea Scrolls Contrarian, Is Dead at 92

47 points by diodorus 6y ago

ggm 6y ago
Digitised data from the scrolls for textual analysis was a thorny topic for years, according to my father who worked a bit on this at Edinburgh University with Andrew Morton. People guarded datasets jealously. The dead sea scrolls centre, places like the Freud archives, they're guardians of artefacts but also guardians of a specific group think. If you attack their credibility, you lose access to the data. It's maybe normal, human, but for scholarship its pernicious. The Vatican archives are in some ways more open i believe, Dan Brown not withstanding. (My dad and Morton mainly worked on new testament, easier to get the texts maybe. He said if you go back to the earliest Aramaic, its plain the Pauline epistles is the work of a committee which pisses off a lot of people.) The amount of bullshit in biblical scholarship is crazy. Digs in Israel are finding second and third heads of John the baptist all the time (that's a "name of the rose" joke) Lots of careers have been built on 1-2cm of scroll. I can't read hebrew ancient or modern, I'm told it's a dense script with ambiguities in written form, which make interpretation overly subjective.
- npunt 6y ago
  Reminds me of this quote: "I don't know of any expedition that ever went looking for [Noah's] ark and didn't find it" [1] When the foundation of a field is taking things on faith and built up on layers and layers of motivated interpretations over the centuries, I imagine its pretty tough finding people who are truly coming at evidence with an open mind. This has always been the thing that kept me from going deep on this facet of history, despite my curiosity. [1] https://www.nationalgeographic.com/adventure/article/100428-noahs-ark-found-in-turkey-science-religion-culture https://www.nationalgeographic.com/adventure/article/100428-...
  - ggm 6y ago
    When your supervisor warns you if you pursue his field of scholarship your name is mud.. that's a moment. Outsider science .. OK I'm not drawn there. Outsider biblical scholarship, subverting the dominant paradigm one fragment at a time? That's.. a life goal! Golb should have been a wikipedia editor.
    - redis_mlc 6y ago
      > Golb should have been a wikipedia editor. Now we're mud-slinging! :) What I love about Wikipedia editors is that when you watch interviews with non-US editors, they all proudly admit to being paid shills (it's the basis of their PR firms.)
- golemiprague 6y ago
  From what I see a lot of it is on the internet and it is not that hard to read and understand if you know the fonts and the language, not so different from reading the bible from a modern scroll. In Wikipedia his theory gets a prominent section so it doesn't look so controversial. There is an excellent movie called "Footnote" exactly about what your father describes, so I guess there is some truth in it.
- notsureaboutpg 6y ago
  It's amazing contrasting this with Quranic scholarship (the faith I follow now). I grew up in a Christian school and even they were totally honest about the high probability and academic theories that the 4 gospels were not written by the claimed authors. I always found that odd. You don't even believe your own faith was recorded down correctly but you call it the word of God?
  - jrumbut 6y ago
    How it was recorded and that it was recorded correctly seem like separate issues (which I don't feel equipped to decide).
  - vmception 6y ago
    sounds like you really need the authentic "word of God" much more than others... like, you can't even appreciate the honesty and pivoted to something written 700 years later based off the same source material? well at least its just one person's rehashing of it and there is no ambiguity there. I can acknowledge that are plenty of other reasons to find Quran scholarship fulfilling, I just can't let a good irony go to waste.
    - countrymile 6y ago
      Whether it is one person's rehashing is another debate. We don't possess any original Quranic manuscripts, early manuscripts show changes, parts of the Quranic script was eaten by goats and current manuscripts vary in content, albeit in minor ways. It's not to say that Mohammed didn't receive a correct revelation, that his followers didn't memorise it correctly and the first version of the Quran wasn't a perfect copy of Mohammed's revelations. It's just we don't have the original scripts to support this claim. And if we're going to subject the new testament to higher criticism then we need to do the same to the Quran. It's worth reading tom Holland and Dan brubaker. Others will disagree, but from a historical perspective there is a lack of evidence for the perfect recording of a single author.
      - wnscooke 6y ago
- finder83 6y ago
  For the Pauline epistles comment, do you mean Greek? The earliest manuscripts I'm aware of are all Greek, and I don't think it's a debate that they were. Or are you saying there were aramaic scripts that were inspirations? I'm definitely not an expert, have just studied Greek and Hebrew in seminary, so was curious.
  - ggm 6y ago
    I'm also not an expert but, I said Aramaic because that's what Sid, my dad said was the earliest recorded script. Web searches suggest its a matter of discussion.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - steve19 6y ago
      In any event the debate is which letters were or were not written by Paul. There is no reason to suspect he wrote none of them, or at least none were transcribed them to secretary. The debate is which was written by him and which were not. Your father may have claimed it was very obvious, but nobody else thinks so.
      - ggm 6y ago
        His research focus outside of computer science was stylometry and statistical analysis of authorship. I suspect contextually he was saying it was obvious from a form of analysis. He was a Jewish athiest and completely uninterested in the biblical scholarship questions. His collaborator, rev Morton was a parish minister in the church of Scotland. He used to joke you could be a very good scots minister without worrying about God very much. Golb's son idolised his father maybe too much. I wouldn't be committing crimes to defend Sid's stylometry results.
        gwd 6y ago
        I've heard of these types of statistical analyses before, but they always sounded a bit suspicious to me. Have they been verified on known datasets? i.e., if I used your fathers techniques on your comment history, would it find that it was authored by a single person, or would it think there was a committee of you?
- bawolff 6y ago
  > I can't read hebrew ancient or modern, I'm told it's a dense script with ambiguities in written form, which make interpretation overly subjective. Isn't that true of every language? Especially when reading an older text where we dont have the context of a native speaker.
  - ggm 6y ago
    I'm told ancient written hebrew omits vowels, and lacks stress marks.
    - dogma1138 6y ago
      Hebrew mostly lacks dedicated vowels period, the same letters can be used in multiple ways. Nikud which is the diacritical mark system Hebrew uses was developed in the Middle Ages make Hebrew easier to teach and to ensure that pronunciation is more easily preserved.
      - lordgrenville 6y ago
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abjad https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abjad
    - marshmallow_12 6y ago
      you can get on very well about 97+% of the time without the vowels.
      - cik 6y ago
        It's really the transliterated words that are problems. Though, I find when I read novels and multiple words might might there's a tendency to add the vowels under a single letter. Which reminds me I need to go to Tzomet...
    - betterunix2 6y ago
      That is not a problem and is equally true of modern Hebrew writing. The vowel markings were developed by scholars during the middle ages whose goal was to produce a perfect copy of the Hebrew Bible, centuries after the original texts were written. Those markings are not strictly necessary for native Hebrew speakers, but when they were invented the majority of Jews, even Jewish scholars, were not native Hebrew speakers. Semitic languages like Hebrew and Arabic do not require vowels when written down because of their grammar. For the most part pronunciation can be determined from consonants and the context of each word (the context within a sentence). In English there are a few examples e.g. "He grws" versus "He grw" -- the first is clearly missing an 'o' while the second is clearly missing an 'e'. In Hebrew that can be done with almost every word and sentence, and thus vowels are not typically written because they are unnecessary for native speakers.
- dominicjj 6y ago
  >(My dad and Morton mainly worked on new testament, easier to get the texts maybe. He said if you go back to the earliest Aramaic, its plain the Pauline epistles is the work of a committee which pisses off a lot of people.) Paul wrote in koine Greek. The 'earliest Aramaic' versions of the Pauline epistles might be 5th century Syriac copies or maybe the 11th century Khabouris Manuscript which was a copy of a 160AD NT but the originals were koine. >The amount of bullshit in biblical scholarship is crazy. Indeed.
nieve 6y ago
The full announcement linked from the article: http://pompeiisites.org/en/comunicati/the-four-wheeled-processional-chariot-the-last-discovery-of-pompeii/ http://pompeiisites.org/en/comunicati/the-four-wheeled-proce...
- sokoloff 6y ago
  That’s an interesting link on the “Lamborghini” chariot, not this article.
- progre 6y ago
  Wrong thread?
g5095 6y ago
I'm a Christian, and a nerd and so the intersection of that puts mW firmly in the amateur biblical historian camp. As a theist reading ancient texts in modern languages you have to do your research on methods of translation, sources, etc. In my 30 years regularly reading in this field this is the first time I've heard a contrary opinion to the essine theory.. And that pisses me off, I rely on good research of the kind Golb provides to be readily available. What Golb says here makes far more sense than a monastic group burying scrolls as a matter of course, especially considering the volume and diversity of the material. The exodus of Jerusalem provides a far more sensible motive for burying a library in the wilderness, Rome was intent on leveling the city and the culture. Historians should be happy and welcome contrary theory, assuming they are interested in truth and not fame.
- wl 6y ago
  Norman Golb's hypothesis here was hardly obscure, being frequently covered in Biblical Archeology Review, not to mention actual scholarly journals. I suspect you've found yourself in a confessional bubble.
mxcrossb 6y ago
I think some of the comments here are seeing the word contrarian and dead seas scrolls and assuming he must have had some church forgery grand conspiracy theory instead of the more insider debate he was involved in. For anyone who is interested in the scrolls, I really recommend the great courses class on them which is pretty affordable via audible: https://www.audible.com/pd/The-Dead-Sea-Scrolls-Audiobook/B00D97T33G https://www.audible.com/pd/The-Dead-Sea-Scrolls-Audiobook/B0...
- superjan 6y ago
  I can second that recommendation. Contrarians do get their mention in the course albeit briefly. It also gives fascinating insight into the different sects of judaism in that period.
ilimilku 6y ago
I studied with Professor Golb for many years at the University of Chicago. He was my doctoral advisor and taught most of the classes I took in my program. He was a genuinely good man, kind, a true gentleman, and the most astute reader of texts ranging from the Dead Sea Scrolls, rabbinic literature from the Mishnah through Ibn Ezra, the Cairo Genizah, and Judeo-Arabic. He wrote comprehensively on the medieval Jewish community of Rouen, such that he was given the key to the city by the mayor. He was not just a Dead Sea Scrolls scholar, even if that his how he is usually known. He was demanding of his students yet gracious and magnanimous. I took a Hebrew Grammarians class one term thinking that we would be reading medieval Hebrew. The first few texts we read were to our surprise in Judeo-Arabic, even though he never determined whether or not we knew any Arabic. He must have just assumed that we would assimilate it through the hard work of dealing with the text, and we did. We read the Copper Scroll together, the Masada fragments of Ben Sira, so many wonderful texts. I regularly had "Indiana Jones" moments, when sitting under the painted, vaulted ceilings of the Research Archives of the Oriental Institute. It was just that awesome. Even though now I am a software engineer and no longer in academia, everything I am as an analyst and a thinker, I owe to Norman Golb. May his memory be for a blessing.
- mshaler 6y ago
  This is a lovely remembrance. May all teachers find such a future home in the hearts and minds of their students.

47 points by diodorus 6y ago

ggm 6y ago

Digitised data from the scrolls for textual analysis was a thorny topic for years, according to my father who worked a bit on this at Edinburgh University with Andrew Morton. People guarded datasets jealously. The dead sea scrolls centre, places like the Freud archives, they're guardians of artefacts but also guardians of a specific group think. If you attack their credibility, you lose access to the data. It's maybe normal, human, but for scholarship its pernicious. The Vatican archives are in some ways more open i believe, Dan Brown not withstanding. (My dad and Morton mainly worked on new testament, easier to get the texts maybe. He said if you go back to the earliest Aramaic, its plain the Pauline epistles is the work of a committee which pisses off a lot of people.) The amount of bullshit in biblical scholarship is crazy. Digs in Israel are finding second and third heads of John the baptist all the time (that's a "name of the rose" joke) Lots of careers have been built on 1-2cm of scroll. I can't read hebrew ancient or modern, I'm told it's a dense script with ambiguities in written form, which make interpretation overly subjective.

npunt 6y ago
Reminds me of this quote: "I don't know of any expedition that ever went looking for [Noah's] ark and didn't find it" [1] When the foundation of a field is taking things on faith and built up on layers and layers of motivated interpretations over the centuries, I imagine its pretty tough finding people who are truly coming at evidence with an open mind. This has always been the thing that kept me from going deep on this facet of history, despite my curiosity. [1] https://www.nationalgeographic.com/adventure/article/100428-noahs-ark-found-in-turkey-science-religion-culture https://www.nationalgeographic.com/adventure/article/100428-...
- ggm 6y ago
  When your supervisor warns you if you pursue his field of scholarship your name is mud.. that's a moment. Outsider science .. OK I'm not drawn there. Outsider biblical scholarship, subverting the dominant paradigm one fragment at a time? That's.. a life goal! Golb should have been a wikipedia editor.
  - redis_mlc 6y ago
    > Golb should have been a wikipedia editor. Now we're mud-slinging! :) What I love about Wikipedia editors is that when you watch interviews with non-US editors, they all proudly admit to being paid shills (it's the basis of their PR firms.)
golemiprague 6y ago
From what I see a lot of it is on the internet and it is not that hard to read and understand if you know the fonts and the language, not so different from reading the bible from a modern scroll. In Wikipedia his theory gets a prominent section so it doesn't look so controversial. There is an excellent movie called "Footnote" exactly about what your father describes, so I guess there is some truth in it.
notsureaboutpg 6y ago
It's amazing contrasting this with Quranic scholarship (the faith I follow now). I grew up in a Christian school and even they were totally honest about the high probability and academic theories that the 4 gospels were not written by the claimed authors. I always found that odd. You don't even believe your own faith was recorded down correctly but you call it the word of God?
- jrumbut 6y ago
  How it was recorded and that it was recorded correctly seem like separate issues (which I don't feel equipped to decide).
- vmception 6y ago
  sounds like you really need the authentic "word of God" much more than others... like, you can't even appreciate the honesty and pivoted to something written 700 years later based off the same source material? well at least its just one person's rehashing of it and there is no ambiguity there. I can acknowledge that are plenty of other reasons to find Quran scholarship fulfilling, I just can't let a good irony go to waste.
  - countrymile 6y ago
    Whether it is one person's rehashing is another debate. We don't possess any original Quranic manuscripts, early manuscripts show changes, parts of the Quranic script was eaten by goats and current manuscripts vary in content, albeit in minor ways. It's not to say that Mohammed didn't receive a correct revelation, that his followers didn't memorise it correctly and the first version of the Quran wasn't a perfect copy of Mohammed's revelations. It's just we don't have the original scripts to support this claim. And if we're going to subject the new testament to higher criticism then we need to do the same to the Quran. It's worth reading tom Holland and Dan brubaker. Others will disagree, but from a historical perspective there is a lack of evidence for the perfect recording of a single author.
    - wnscooke 6y ago
finder83 6y ago
For the Pauline epistles comment, do you mean Greek? The earliest manuscripts I'm aware of are all Greek, and I don't think it's a debate that they were. Or are you saying there were aramaic scripts that were inspirations? I'm definitely not an expert, have just studied Greek and Hebrew in seminary, so was curious.
- ggm 6y ago
  I'm also not an expert but, I said Aramaic because that's what Sid, my dad said was the earliest recorded script. Web searches suggest its a matter of discussion.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - steve19 6y ago
    In any event the debate is which letters were or were not written by Paul. There is no reason to suspect he wrote none of them, or at least none were transcribed them to secretary. The debate is which was written by him and which were not. Your father may have claimed it was very obvious, but nobody else thinks so.
    - ggm 6y ago
      His research focus outside of computer science was stylometry and statistical analysis of authorship. I suspect contextually he was saying it was obvious from a form of analysis. He was a Jewish athiest and completely uninterested in the biblical scholarship questions. His collaborator, rev Morton was a parish minister in the church of Scotland. He used to joke you could be a very good scots minister without worrying about God very much. Golb's son idolised his father maybe too much. I wouldn't be committing crimes to defend Sid's stylometry results.
      - gwd 6y ago
        I've heard of these types of statistical analyses before, but they always sounded a bit suspicious to me. Have they been verified on known datasets? i.e., if I used your fathers techniques on your comment history, would it find that it was authored by a single person, or would it think there was a committee of you?
bawolff 6y ago
> I can't read hebrew ancient or modern, I'm told it's a dense script with ambiguities in written form, which make interpretation overly subjective. Isn't that true of every language? Especially when reading an older text where we dont have the context of a native speaker.
- ggm 6y ago
  I'm told ancient written hebrew omits vowels, and lacks stress marks.
  - dogma1138 6y ago
    Hebrew mostly lacks dedicated vowels period, the same letters can be used in multiple ways. Nikud which is the diacritical mark system Hebrew uses was developed in the Middle Ages make Hebrew easier to teach and to ensure that pronunciation is more easily preserved.
    - lordgrenville 6y ago
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abjad https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abjad
  - marshmallow_12 6y ago
    you can get on very well about 97+% of the time without the vowels.
    - cik 6y ago
      It's really the transliterated words that are problems. Though, I find when I read novels and multiple words might might there's a tendency to add the vowels under a single letter. Which reminds me I need to go to Tzomet...
  - betterunix2 6y ago
    That is not a problem and is equally true of modern Hebrew writing. The vowel markings were developed by scholars during the middle ages whose goal was to produce a perfect copy of the Hebrew Bible, centuries after the original texts were written. Those markings are not strictly necessary for native Hebrew speakers, but when they were invented the majority of Jews, even Jewish scholars, were not native Hebrew speakers. Semitic languages like Hebrew and Arabic do not require vowels when written down because of their grammar. For the most part pronunciation can be determined from consonants and the context of each word (the context within a sentence). In English there are a few examples e.g. "He grws" versus "He grw" -- the first is clearly missing an 'o' while the second is clearly missing an 'e'. In Hebrew that can be done with almost every word and sentence, and thus vowels are not typically written because they are unnecessary for native speakers.
dominicjj 6y ago
>(My dad and Morton mainly worked on new testament, easier to get the texts maybe. He said if you go back to the earliest Aramaic, its plain the Pauline epistles is the work of a committee which pisses off a lot of people.) Paul wrote in koine Greek. The 'earliest Aramaic' versions of the Pauline epistles might be 5th century Syriac copies or maybe the 11th century Khabouris Manuscript which was a copy of a 160AD NT but the originals were koine. >The amount of bullshit in biblical scholarship is crazy. Indeed.

nieve 6y ago

The full announcement linked from the article: http://pompeiisites.org/en/comunicati/the-four-wheeled-processional-chariot-the-last-discovery-of-pompeii/ http://pompeiisites.org/en/comunicati/the-four-wheeled-proce...

sokoloff 6y ago
That’s an interesting link on the “Lamborghini” chariot, not this article.
progre 6y ago
Wrong thread?

g5095 6y ago

I'm a Christian, and a nerd and so the intersection of that puts mW firmly in the amateur biblical historian camp. As a theist reading ancient texts in modern languages you have to do your research on methods of translation, sources, etc. In my 30 years regularly reading in this field this is the first time I've heard a contrary opinion to the essine theory.. And that pisses me off, I rely on good research of the kind Golb provides to be readily available. What Golb says here makes far more sense than a monastic group burying scrolls as a matter of course, especially considering the volume and diversity of the material. The exodus of Jerusalem provides a far more sensible motive for burying a library in the wilderness, Rome was intent on leveling the city and the culture. Historians should be happy and welcome contrary theory, assuming they are interested in truth and not fame.

wl 6y ago
Norman Golb's hypothesis here was hardly obscure, being frequently covered in Biblical Archeology Review, not to mention actual scholarly journals. I suspect you've found yourself in a confessional bubble.

mxcrossb 6y ago

I think some of the comments here are seeing the word contrarian and dead seas scrolls and assuming he must have had some church forgery grand conspiracy theory instead of the more insider debate he was involved in. For anyone who is interested in the scrolls, I really recommend the great courses class on them which is pretty affordable via audible: https://www.audible.com/pd/The-Dead-Sea-Scrolls-Audiobook/B00D97T33G https://www.audible.com/pd/The-Dead-Sea-Scrolls-Audiobook/B0...

superjan 6y ago
I can second that recommendation. Contrarians do get their mention in the course albeit briefly. It also gives fascinating insight into the different sects of judaism in that period.

ilimilku 6y ago

I studied with Professor Golb for many years at the University of Chicago. He was my doctoral advisor and taught most of the classes I took in my program. He was a genuinely good man, kind, a true gentleman, and the most astute reader of texts ranging from the Dead Sea Scrolls, rabbinic literature from the Mishnah through Ibn Ezra, the Cairo Genizah, and Judeo-Arabic. He wrote comprehensively on the medieval Jewish community of Rouen, such that he was given the key to the city by the mayor. He was not just a Dead Sea Scrolls scholar, even if that his how he is usually known. He was demanding of his students yet gracious and magnanimous. I took a Hebrew Grammarians class one term thinking that we would be reading medieval Hebrew. The first few texts we read were to our surprise in Judeo-Arabic, even though he never determined whether or not we knew any Arabic. He must have just assumed that we would assimilate it through the hard work of dealing with the text, and we did. We read the Copper Scroll together, the Masada fragments of Ben Sira, so many wonderful texts. I regularly had "Indiana Jones" moments, when sitting under the painted, vaulted ceilings of the Research Archives of the Oriental Institute. It was just that awesome. Even though now I am a software engineer and no longer in academia, everything I am as an analyst and a thinker, I owe to Norman Golb. May his memory be for a blessing.

mshaler 6y ago
This is a lovely remembrance. May all teachers find such a future home in the hearts and minds of their students.