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I get what you're saying, and I'm not denying this all exists in Europe. And I don't mean that America is perfect, it's actually in a shameful state for many pe

by np- 6y ago

I get what you're saying, and I'm not denying this all exists in Europe. And I don't mean that America is perfect, it's actually in a shameful state for many people. But what I mean is that the "brutal reality" of the US doesn't exist for many software devs. I don't mean this as a humblebrag, but my wife and I are both software engineers in the NYC area, both in non-FAANG companies. * My wife was laid off in 2019, pre-COVID. She got almost 9 months worth of full US salary paid. Likely equivalent to 2-3 years salary in Europe. She found a new job within 3 months and pocketed the rest. Obviously, stronger employment protection is nice, but the generous cash payout is a nice consolation prize. * Health insurance for both of us is excellent. The cost compared to salary is negligible (fortunately, the worst we've had to deal with is serious dental surgery, which was handled very professionally and cost effectively). * Unlimited vacation for both of us. We have spent the past month in Florida. * We live in NYC, public transit is excellent for US standards (though it's garbage compared to Asia). We do have a car entirely voluntarily, it's not necessary. My wife doesn't drive at all. * Parental leave ~6 months for each of us. Like I said, we're at non-FAANG no name companies that you've probably never heard of. FAANG would be much more generous. On top of all this, we're paid extremely generously, likely 2-3x what you would expect in Berlin/Amsterdam plus generous equity compensation. If you're responsible with saving your money, there's basically no place better to be a software engineer on the planet.

ido 6y ago
Yeah I don't think the argument was ever that if you're in the top 10% (or whatever) of society economically you'll get more in the US than in Europe (or anywhere else). In Europe everyone is squeezed more towards the middle - less risk and less reward. The point is that I want to live in a more egalitarian society even if that means I personally have to pay higher taxes (relative to what I get back in social services). But also I think you may overestimate how secure your position is - people get sick in a way that means they can't work for a while (or at all), or are limited in how much they can work. I also never thought it would happen to me but when I was in my mid 30s with no history of serious illness or any health issues I was diagnosed with a malignant brain tumor. I had to get operated to remove it pretty much instantly and was not able to work for months afterwards. For as long as 6 months after the operation I was only working very part time, and this is for a more or less best case scenario with cancer - it was caught early & I didn't need chemotherapy or radiation therapy. If I was less fortunate I may have been unable to work for a year+ afterwards and may have never 100% fully recovered. And this is not the only way your fortunes can change, you can get hit by a bus, get injured in a burglary, get drunk one night and slip and fall. All of these can more or less random events can result in you continuing to live but without the ability to command as high a wage afterwards. I personally know people (software engineers even) that experienced stuff like that, or even seemingly less severe issues (burn out, depression) that still meant they were no longer at the top of society economically like they were used to. I want to reiterate that I'm not trying to convince you you are "wrong" - maybe your personal risk/reward tolerance is such that where you are makes more sense for you. I'm an immigrant here and could have immigrated to the US instead of to Europe if I wanted to (I'm Israeli so had no particular advantage that would have made it easier to go to Europe than to America).
- np- 6y ago
  You’re right, and again I’m not saying America is perfect. This was specifically in the context of being a developer, of which very little of the parent comment is true. Risk/reward and all that, yes, that’s likely a cultural or personal issue where we might weigh the pros and cons differently, which is fine. I’m not saying my way is the only way. But I do also feel on a personal level that for an American born in America, running off to Europe in search of a more perfect society is basically no different just running off to a gated community somewhere in a rich state where I don’t have to see the poor people anymore. They’re still there though, just out of sight. Since I do see problems and do have the resources to help, I’m obligated to do what I can. But again that’s a personal decision, and I would never truly knock on someone who was genuinely trying to improve their lot in life.
  - ido 6y ago
    Surely the poor people you are not seeing in Europe are mostly in developing countries in Africa and Asia, not in the US, right? But yes, I can imagine a big part of the puzzle of why Americans put up with the way things are is that above a certain level of wealth (top ~30%?) you don't have to suffer for lack of stuff you'd otherwise get from public services in Europe (or in Canada, Australia, etc).
    - np- 6y ago
      What I mean is that if we’ve (meaning the privileged Americans) already got it pretty good, then why should we leave? If the reason is that life would be better elsewhere, then that’s a valid reason to go. If the reason is that we feel our fellow citizens are treated unfairly, then shouldn’t we stay and try to fix it (as voting Americans with potential influence). I’m not saying to take responsibility for the world’s poor, I’m saying that if you’re already in a privileged spot, it’s the ultimate privilege to just up and leave.

by np- 6y ago

ido 6y ago

Yeah I don't think the argument was ever that if you're in the top 10% (or whatever) of society economically you'll get more in the US than in Europe (or anywhere else). In Europe everyone is squeezed more towards the middle - less risk and less reward. The point is that I want to live in a more egalitarian society even if that means I personally have to pay higher taxes (relative to what I get back in social services). But also I think you may overestimate how secure your position is - people get sick in a way that means they can't work for a while (or at all), or are limited in how much they can work. I also never thought it would happen to me but when I was in my mid 30s with no history of serious illness or any health issues I was diagnosed with a malignant brain tumor. I had to get operated to remove it pretty much instantly and was not able to work for months afterwards. For as long as 6 months after the operation I was only working very part time, and this is for a more or less best case scenario with cancer - it was caught early & I didn't need chemotherapy or radiation therapy. If I was less fortunate I may have been unable to work for a year+ afterwards and may have never 100% fully recovered. And this is not the only way your fortunes can change, you can get hit by a bus, get injured in a burglary, get drunk one night and slip and fall. All of these can more or less random events can result in you continuing to live but without the ability to command as high a wage afterwards. I personally know people (software engineers even) that experienced stuff like that, or even seemingly less severe issues (burn out, depression) that still meant they were no longer at the top of society economically like they were used to. I want to reiterate that I'm not trying to convince you you are "wrong" - maybe your personal risk/reward tolerance is such that where you are makes more sense for you. I'm an immigrant here and could have immigrated to the US instead of to Europe if I wanted to (I'm Israeli so had no particular advantage that would have made it easier to go to Europe than to America).

np- 6y ago
You’re right, and again I’m not saying America is perfect. This was specifically in the context of being a developer, of which very little of the parent comment is true. Risk/reward and all that, yes, that’s likely a cultural or personal issue where we might weigh the pros and cons differently, which is fine. I’m not saying my way is the only way. But I do also feel on a personal level that for an American born in America, running off to Europe in search of a more perfect society is basically no different just running off to a gated community somewhere in a rich state where I don’t have to see the poor people anymore. They’re still there though, just out of sight. Since I do see problems and do have the resources to help, I’m obligated to do what I can. But again that’s a personal decision, and I would never truly knock on someone who was genuinely trying to improve their lot in life.
- ido 6y ago
  Surely the poor people you are not seeing in Europe are mostly in developing countries in Africa and Asia, not in the US, right? But yes, I can imagine a big part of the puzzle of why Americans put up with the way things are is that above a certain level of wealth (top ~30%?) you don't have to suffer for lack of stuff you'd otherwise get from public services in Europe (or in Canada, Australia, etc).
  - np- 6y ago
    What I mean is that if we’ve (meaning the privileged Americans) already got it pretty good, then why should we leave? If the reason is that life would be better elsewhere, then that’s a valid reason to go. If the reason is that we feel our fellow citizens are treated unfairly, then shouldn’t we stay and try to fix it (as voting Americans with potential influence). I’m not saying to take responsibility for the world’s poor, I’m saying that if you’re already in a privileged spot, it’s the ultimate privilege to just up and leave.