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- even in fast cars you often can't turn off the esc (electronic stability control) - it might actually not allow you to make unusual maneuvers (handbrake turn

- even in fast cars you often can't turn off the esc (electronic stability control) - it might actually not allow you to make unusual maneuvers (handbrake turns, etc) ; this actually can trigger the automatic emergency hotline call (been a witness) - it beeps at you for not wearing your seat belt (even while driving across an empty parking lot going 10 mph, or being on private property) - it has distance sensors (car beeps at you when driving out of a narrow parking garage constantly) - it warns you when it's cold, wet, you drive too fast ... - you can't set height of headlamps manually anymore (good for xeon which burn out everyone else's eyes even with default height settings...) - it might check whether you are in lane and warn when you go outside of it you might not agree, but all of that frustrates me (and does, whenever I have a rental), and makes me feel less in control and being treated like a child. -> add to all that : many electronic pieces are hard to replace, repair, debug if something isn't working ; not even talking about the full blown modern electronic gizmos where you now have to theoretically worry about your car getting (or not getting) software updates. Being in total control for me includes the ability to shoot yourself in the foot. I realize this isn't what your average 'a car is just a utility for me' driver wants, but what an enthusiast wants. to maybe come up with an imperfect analogy : average users use windows, power users use linux ; as long as I have linux as an option, I am happy. But the current development goes to a windows only world (in this metaphor), and it's rare to find cars that are exciting anymore.

amanaplanacanal 6y ago
I’m trying to imagine a situation where I would want to not wear a seatbelt, but I don’t know what it would be.
- RogerL 6y ago
  Driving around your property picking up tree branches or other debris. Backing a boat down a boat ramp. 4 wheeling where you have to hang out the window to see where your tire is. Basically there a lot of off road type situations where you want/need freedom of movement. I would guess from your comment that you don't these things, but many of us do. The one that kills me is it dings when the 'passenger' doesn't have their belt fashioned. Where the passenger is a box, or groceries, or whatever. I end up leaving the belt permanently put in, which is slightly annoying when I do have a passenger get in.
  - amanaplanacanal 6y ago
    Aye, that makes sense. All my driving is on pavement.
ska 6y ago
> even in fast cars you often can't turn off the esc (electronic stability control) You can always drive older fast cars that are more manual. Not as safe maybe, but fun. Modern ones are mostly too powerful to do well without it.
heavenlyblue 6y ago
> even while driving across an empty parking lot going 10 mph, or being on private property Being on private property does not imply you can break the law. And also being on private property does not imply lower chances or killing you self. If that were the case, construction workers would be in a really bad place since all of them work on “private property” - does that imply that they should not pay attention to health and safety? > you can't set height of headlamps manually anymore (good for xeon which burn out everyone else's eyes even with default height settings...) Why would you need to change the height of the headlights? Would you prefer for police to be given devices to detect if your lights were misconfigured when they stop you so that they could enforce that? Any safety methodology would tell you it’s easier to make sure people are unable to make mistakes rather than trying to make people conscious enough not to make them. Aviation industry is highly praised for that. > Being in total control for me includes an ability to shoot yourself in the foot. That’s the case where shooting yourself in the foot also implies shooting the brains out of a person who was stupid enough to stand a floor below you when you were shooting yourself in the foot. > power users use Linux But for example hardware running on Linux with high externalities if misconfigured is generally locked up (for example 4G modems and WiFi radio equipment). It will be really expensive for you to get your hands on “hacker” equipment to play with this.
- PeterisP 6y ago
  Being on private property does not imply you can break the law, however, many road vehicle/traffic regulations explicitly apply only to roads open to public traffic (which may include some private property e.g. parking lots). If the law says "it's forbidden to do X on public roads", you're not breaking the law if you do that thing on a private track. Details vary between locations, but seatbelts, roadworthiness, insurance, speed limits, etc generally are things that you are allowed to ignore outside of public traffic. In your example of construction workers, other regulations (e.g. OSHA) would cover your concerns; but, for example, a truck driving up the ramp in a strip-mine would generally not be bound by traffic laws; construction sometimes uses various vehicles that simply can't ever legally participate in road traffic, they just get delivered as "cargo" or assembled/disassembled on-site.
blcArmadillo 6y ago
The annoying one for me is the trunk ajar warning that doesn't time out. That means listening to a constant beep the entire way home from the hardware store when I have something that doesn't fit completely in the car.
toss1 6y ago
I know someone who wrecked an Audi on a track day at Mosport Ontario and is 100% convinced it was due to a bad algorithm. He was coming out of a high-speed turn in a compression and started braking, and just about bent the pedal having to apply so much force, and yet went into the wall. Seems the ESC, which he had turned off (so some backup system engaged), thought the conditions matched ice, so overrode his pedal input and backed off the brake line pressure. I'm also reminded of the manufacturer system that got a border patrol agent killed in a firefight in Mexico a few years ago. The security company that installed the bulletproofing and other upgrades didn't notice a trivial feature. The agent was ok until he stopped the car, then the doors automatically unlocked - dead. Convenience can kill
andrepd 6y ago
It is a very imperfect analogy indeed, since you cannot instantly kill a family of 5 with a flick of your wrist, while using linux. Cars kill one and a half million people a year. Let that sink in. That's a loaded jumbo jet going down every few hours. Cars are not supposed to be exciting, they are (or should be) supposed to be safe. If you want exciting cars, buy a dedicated one and play with it exclusively on the track. There's already enough morons doing "exciting driving" in public roads. > Being in total control for me includes the ability to shoot yourself in the foot. Yeah, if it would only be yourself you'd endanger, I'd say knock yourself out. But you can harm others, so you shouldn't have that freedom. ESC, seatbelt warnings, road condition warnings, even a simple alert when you've been driving for a long time without breaks, all those things measurable save lives. I'm sorry you feel annoyed, but I find that a very self-centered thing to say.

amanaplanacanal 6y ago

I’m trying to imagine a situation where I would want to not wear a seatbelt, but I don’t know what it would be.

RogerL 6y ago
Driving around your property picking up tree branches or other debris. Backing a boat down a boat ramp. 4 wheeling where you have to hang out the window to see where your tire is. Basically there a lot of off road type situations where you want/need freedom of movement. I would guess from your comment that you don't these things, but many of us do. The one that kills me is it dings when the 'passenger' doesn't have their belt fashioned. Where the passenger is a box, or groceries, or whatever. I end up leaving the belt permanently put in, which is slightly annoying when I do have a passenger get in.
- amanaplanacanal 6y ago
  Aye, that makes sense. All my driving is on pavement.

ska 6y ago

> even in fast cars you often can't turn off the esc (electronic stability control) You can always drive older fast cars that are more manual. Not as safe maybe, but fun. Modern ones are mostly too powerful to do well without it.

heavenlyblue 6y ago

> even while driving across an empty parking lot going 10 mph, or being on private property Being on private property does not imply you can break the law. And also being on private property does not imply lower chances or killing you self. If that were the case, construction workers would be in a really bad place since all of them work on “private property” - does that imply that they should not pay attention to health and safety? > you can't set height of headlamps manually anymore (good for xeon which burn out everyone else's eyes even with default height settings...) Why would you need to change the height of the headlights? Would you prefer for police to be given devices to detect if your lights were misconfigured when they stop you so that they could enforce that? Any safety methodology would tell you it’s easier to make sure people are unable to make mistakes rather than trying to make people conscious enough not to make them. Aviation industry is highly praised for that. > Being in total control for me includes an ability to shoot yourself in the foot. That’s the case where shooting yourself in the foot also implies shooting the brains out of a person who was stupid enough to stand a floor below you when you were shooting yourself in the foot. > power users use Linux But for example hardware running on Linux with high externalities if misconfigured is generally locked up (for example 4G modems and WiFi radio equipment). It will be really expensive for you to get your hands on “hacker” equipment to play with this.

PeterisP 6y ago
Being on private property does not imply you can break the law, however, many road vehicle/traffic regulations explicitly apply only to roads open to public traffic (which may include some private property e.g. parking lots). If the law says "it's forbidden to do X on public roads", you're not breaking the law if you do that thing on a private track. Details vary between locations, but seatbelts, roadworthiness, insurance, speed limits, etc generally are things that you are allowed to ignore outside of public traffic. In your example of construction workers, other regulations (e.g. OSHA) would cover your concerns; but, for example, a truck driving up the ramp in a strip-mine would generally not be bound by traffic laws; construction sometimes uses various vehicles that simply can't ever legally participate in road traffic, they just get delivered as "cargo" or assembled/disassembled on-site.

blcArmadillo 6y ago

The annoying one for me is the trunk ajar warning that doesn't time out. That means listening to a constant beep the entire way home from the hardware store when I have something that doesn't fit completely in the car.

toss1 6y ago

I know someone who wrecked an Audi on a track day at Mosport Ontario and is 100% convinced it was due to a bad algorithm. He was coming out of a high-speed turn in a compression and started braking, and just about bent the pedal having to apply so much force, and yet went into the wall. Seems the ESC, which he had turned off (so some backup system engaged), thought the conditions matched ice, so overrode his pedal input and backed off the brake line pressure. I'm also reminded of the manufacturer system that got a border patrol agent killed in a firefight in Mexico a few years ago. The security company that installed the bulletproofing and other upgrades didn't notice a trivial feature. The agent was ok until he stopped the car, then the doors automatically unlocked - dead. Convenience can kill

andrepd 6y ago

It is a very imperfect analogy indeed, since you cannot instantly kill a family of 5 with a flick of your wrist, while using linux. Cars kill one and a half million people a year. Let that sink in. That's a loaded jumbo jet going down every few hours. Cars are not supposed to be exciting, they are (or should be) supposed to be safe. If you want exciting cars, buy a dedicated one and play with it exclusively on the track. There's already enough morons doing "exciting driving" in public roads. > Being in total control for me includes the ability to shoot yourself in the foot. Yeah, if it would only be yourself you'd endanger, I'd say knock yourself out. But you can harm others, so you shouldn't have that freedom. ESC, seatbelt warnings, road condition warnings, even a simple alert when you've been driving for a long time without breaks, all those things measurable save lives. I'm sorry you feel annoyed, but I find that a very self-centered thing to say.