5 ms·

Difference of opinion, I think 200 miles is plenty of range even for most 1 car families. That is basically 1 stop from LA to vegas, and 1-2 stops from LA to S

Difference of opinion, I think 200 miles is plenty of range even for most 1 car families. That is basically 1 stop from LA to vegas, and 1-2 stops from LA to San Francisco. I'd like to see focus on lowering the base cost of Teslas, and the lower the range target the easier to get there.

dmoy 6y ago
200 miles is not 200 miles in real winter though.
- cogman10 6y ago
  It's now closer than you might think (except in extreme conditions). The main driver of range loss for earlier tesla's was the fact that they used an resistivity heater for the cabin/battery. That changed fairly recently to a heat pump. The range loss now is far less than it used to be. Extreme temps will render the heat pumps useless, but that's not the common case. You've got to be in northern Candida and Alaska before you are starting to talk about a useless heatpump.
  - jeffreyrogers 6y ago
    I think the recent experience in Texas shows that you have to plan for the worst case even if you don't think it will be necessary. Anecdotally, I know the manager of a car dealership here in Utah (we get real winters, at least sometimes and in parts of the state) who says he gets a lot of Tesla owners trading in their cars, and he implied it had to do with range issues.
    - cogman10 6y ago
      Texas's winter was extreme for Texas, not extreme for what a heat pump will do. I live in Idaho and get "real" winters. Range hasn't been a problem for me with my 2018 Tesla (Even though it has the resistivity heater). I've even visited Utah a couple of times in the winter. And, no offense, but I don't really trust the manager of a car dealership to give me accurate information about what's going on with tesla trade ins. You wouldn't ask a Chevy dealer about a Ford.
  - buran77 6y ago
    No extreme conditions are needed. When taking relatively short trips in winter you may have to heat up the whole interior and turn on the seat heating every time. And until the battery is warm enough you also sacrifice some of the quick charging, regeneration, and performance. The BEV owners in my family all reported 20-40+% lower range whenever they can't preheat everything while still plugged in, and that's at relatively decent temperatures (-6/-10C). Of course this can be partially mitigated (although freezing in a 60k+E car doesn't seem like a decent option to me) and might happen only for several weeks every year but even a penalty that's smaller than what the average ICE will see in winter is still a lot given the typical shorter range and longer "refill" times for EVs.
    - cogman10 6y ago
      How short is short? Throughout the winter I'll do 20 or 30 mile trips around town with no problem. I don't even think about range in those cases. It's not until I'm doing 200 or 300 mile trips that I have to start prepping for things.
      - deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
  - speed_spread 6y ago
    I'm itching to heatpump across Northern Candida
- pedrocr 6y ago
  200 miles is not even 200 miles in summer when doing a road trip. Highway miles are less efficient than the average of the test cycle, and much less efficient if you drive on the faster side.
- vkou 6y ago
  If you frequently go on long road-trips, 200 miles is not sufficient in summer or winter. If you don't, 200 miles is more than sufficient, regardless of the season. If you absolutely have to make a 190 mile trip in winter, consider stopping for a charge, or renting/borrowing an ICE car.
- m463 6y ago
  It's also not 200 miles anyway. You can't use 100% of your battery. Most people preserve their battery health, so will not charge to 100% or drain to 0% You can't (practically) supercharge to 100%. It will probably take as long to get from 80 to 100% as it does to get to 80%. In many cases it's not nice to hog the charger. And its really hard to get to 0% even if you tried. There probably won't be a supercharger located right where you hit 0% even if you risked it. So.. you really use the middle 60% of your battery, between 20% and 80%
  - jeffrallen 6y ago
    > Most people preserve their battery health No, most people don't pay any attention to it, which is why all the Battery Management Systems in all EVs pay attention for you.
    - m463 6y ago
      On a tesla you set it in the UI and it is an integral part of charging. There's a charging "set limit" percentage from 60 to 100%. 60% (daily) up to 100% (marked trip) I think most people choose 70 or 80% On busy superchargers the limit is moved down to 80% if it is set above it. Now other cars treat their battery differently. They may indicate 100% but they reserve a buffer and it's really some lower percentage. I suspect tesla has a buffer too, even if it is just for temperature fluctuations, which seem to move the percentage around.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
koolba 6y ago
When the battery is also powering your car’s heater the range drops significantly. Especially with short trips that need to repeatedly warm up from cooler winter temperatures.
- rsj_hn 6y ago
  I think in a real winter the battery would need to be heated even when the car is parked overnight, no? Or store it in a well-heated garage overnight.
  - jeffrallen 6y ago
    Nope, I walked outside in -10 degrees centigrade and had to choose between my diesel Sharan and my Renault Zoe. Easy choice: the Zoe had instant heat because of its heat pump. It worked fine even with with battery at -10, and the displayed range slowly rose, as the battery warmed up. Once the interior was comfortable, the BMS asked the heater to send some heat into the batteries. In the Zoe's air cooled batteries, the heating/cooling system is shared between the occupants and the BMS.
- abfan1127 6y ago
  why not use a heat pump for heating given its >100% relative efficiency? Edit: apparently some VW models include a heat pump for this reason.[1] Edit 2: Apparently some Teslas have it too. [2] [1] https://www.speakev.com/threads/heat-pump-yes-or- https://www.speakev.com/threads/heat-pump-yes-or- no.16768/ [2] https://electrek.co/2020/03/13/tesla-model-y-has-a-heat-pump-for-consistent-range-in-cold-climates/ https://electrek.co/2020/03/13/tesla-model-y-has-a-heat-pump...
  - X6S1x6Okd1st 6y ago
    Where are you pumping the heat from?
    - abfan1127 6y ago
      outside, just like residential heat pumps.
Shivetya 6y ago
Stop. Just stop. First off, brand ranges are rated at 100% capacity and many brands suggest to not charge to 100% most of the time if ever. Then throw in weather effects on range and this does not just mean winter but driving in rain can increase usage. However the top two reasons to push 300 more as the baseline is simply convenience. The convenience of not having to worry about your charge or need to charge frequently. That removes the negative comparisons many try to make showing that BEVs are not ready for prime time. Once technology catches up and you can fix that range in ten minutes; not going to happen; then a lower range might be okay. Second and more importantly the big automakers want you to buy into that idea so they can eek out small range improvements as a selling feature to get you into next year's car. Similar to how many of them still have heart failure of OTA in the definition Tesla uses it. Now can there be a type of car where ranges are aimed at commuting only? Sure, but as a whole replacement vehicles for ICE vehicles should out perform on all numbers. Don't let them sell you into an infinite cycle of range increases because they will. 250 is entry level now and 300 should be the minimum for any semi luxury and higher priced EV. Hell look at the recently released Mini if you want an idea of where the industry hoped to be at but Tesla shot that idea full of holes and doubly so when the Bolt came along and now VW ID.* series.

dmoy 6y ago

200 miles is not 200 miles in real winter though.

cogman10 6y ago
It's now closer than you might think (except in extreme conditions). The main driver of range loss for earlier tesla's was the fact that they used an resistivity heater for the cabin/battery. That changed fairly recently to a heat pump. The range loss now is far less than it used to be. Extreme temps will render the heat pumps useless, but that's not the common case. You've got to be in northern Candida and Alaska before you are starting to talk about a useless heatpump.
- jeffreyrogers 6y ago
  I think the recent experience in Texas shows that you have to plan for the worst case even if you don't think it will be necessary. Anecdotally, I know the manager of a car dealership here in Utah (we get real winters, at least sometimes and in parts of the state) who says he gets a lot of Tesla owners trading in their cars, and he implied it had to do with range issues.
  - cogman10 6y ago
    Texas's winter was extreme for Texas, not extreme for what a heat pump will do. I live in Idaho and get "real" winters. Range hasn't been a problem for me with my 2018 Tesla (Even though it has the resistivity heater). I've even visited Utah a couple of times in the winter. And, no offense, but I don't really trust the manager of a car dealership to give me accurate information about what's going on with tesla trade ins. You wouldn't ask a Chevy dealer about a Ford.
- buran77 6y ago
  No extreme conditions are needed. When taking relatively short trips in winter you may have to heat up the whole interior and turn on the seat heating every time. And until the battery is warm enough you also sacrifice some of the quick charging, regeneration, and performance. The BEV owners in my family all reported 20-40+% lower range whenever they can't preheat everything while still plugged in, and that's at relatively decent temperatures (-6/-10C). Of course this can be partially mitigated (although freezing in a 60k+E car doesn't seem like a decent option to me) and might happen only for several weeks every year but even a penalty that's smaller than what the average ICE will see in winter is still a lot given the typical shorter range and longer "refill" times for EVs.
  - cogman10 6y ago
    How short is short? Throughout the winter I'll do 20 or 30 mile trips around town with no problem. I don't even think about range in those cases. It's not until I'm doing 200 or 300 mile trips that I have to start prepping for things.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
- speed_spread 6y ago
  I'm itching to heatpump across Northern Candida
pedrocr 6y ago
200 miles is not even 200 miles in summer when doing a road trip. Highway miles are less efficient than the average of the test cycle, and much less efficient if you drive on the faster side.
vkou 6y ago
If you frequently go on long road-trips, 200 miles is not sufficient in summer or winter. If you don't, 200 miles is more than sufficient, regardless of the season. If you absolutely have to make a 190 mile trip in winter, consider stopping for a charge, or renting/borrowing an ICE car.
m463 6y ago
It's also not 200 miles anyway. You can't use 100% of your battery. Most people preserve their battery health, so will not charge to 100% or drain to 0% You can't (practically) supercharge to 100%. It will probably take as long to get from 80 to 100% as it does to get to 80%. In many cases it's not nice to hog the charger. And its really hard to get to 0% even if you tried. There probably won't be a supercharger located right where you hit 0% even if you risked it. So.. you really use the middle 60% of your battery, between 20% and 80%
- jeffrallen 6y ago
  > Most people preserve their battery health No, most people don't pay any attention to it, which is why all the Battery Management Systems in all EVs pay attention for you.
  - m463 6y ago
    On a tesla you set it in the UI and it is an integral part of charging. There's a charging "set limit" percentage from 60 to 100%. 60% (daily) up to 100% (marked trip) I think most people choose 70 or 80% On busy superchargers the limit is moved down to 80% if it is set above it. Now other cars treat their battery differently. They may indicate 100% but they reserve a buffer and it's really some lower percentage. I suspect tesla has a buffer too, even if it is just for temperature fluctuations, which seem to move the percentage around.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

koolba 6y ago

When the battery is also powering your car’s heater the range drops significantly. Especially with short trips that need to repeatedly warm up from cooler winter temperatures.

rsj_hn 6y ago
I think in a real winter the battery would need to be heated even when the car is parked overnight, no? Or store it in a well-heated garage overnight.
- jeffrallen 6y ago
  Nope, I walked outside in -10 degrees centigrade and had to choose between my diesel Sharan and my Renault Zoe. Easy choice: the Zoe had instant heat because of its heat pump. It worked fine even with with battery at -10, and the displayed range slowly rose, as the battery warmed up. Once the interior was comfortable, the BMS asked the heater to send some heat into the batteries. In the Zoe's air cooled batteries, the heating/cooling system is shared between the occupants and the BMS.
abfan1127 6y ago
why not use a heat pump for heating given its >100% relative efficiency? Edit: apparently some VW models include a heat pump for this reason.[1] Edit 2: Apparently some Teslas have it too. [2] [1] https://www.speakev.com/threads/heat-pump-yes-or- https://www.speakev.com/threads/heat-pump-yes-or- no.16768/ [2] https://electrek.co/2020/03/13/tesla-model-y-has-a-heat-pump-for-consistent-range-in-cold-climates/ https://electrek.co/2020/03/13/tesla-model-y-has-a-heat-pump...
- X6S1x6Okd1st 6y ago
  Where are you pumping the heat from?
  - abfan1127 6y ago
    outside, just like residential heat pumps.

Shivetya 6y ago

Stop. Just stop. First off, brand ranges are rated at 100% capacity and many brands suggest to not charge to 100% most of the time if ever. Then throw in weather effects on range and this does not just mean winter but driving in rain can increase usage. However the top two reasons to push 300 more as the baseline is simply convenience. The convenience of not having to worry about your charge or need to charge frequently. That removes the negative comparisons many try to make showing that BEVs are not ready for prime time. Once technology catches up and you can fix that range in ten minutes; not going to happen; then a lower range might be okay. Second and more importantly the big automakers want you to buy into that idea so they can eek out small range improvements as a selling feature to get you into next year's car. Similar to how many of them still have heart failure of OTA in the definition Tesla uses it. Now can there be a type of car where ranges are aimed at commuting only? Sure, but as a whole replacement vehicles for ICE vehicles should out perform on all numbers. Don't let them sell you into an infinite cycle of range increases because they will. 250 is entry level now and 300 should be the minimum for any semi luxury and higher priced EV. Hell look at the recently released Mini if you want an idea of where the industry hoped to be at but Tesla shot that idea full of holes and doubly so when the Bolt came along and now VW ID.* series.