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The idea of the internet being completely crippled, submarine cables fried, data centers zapped, backup power gone, is terrifying in itself. Almost every supply

The idea of the internet being completely crippled, submarine cables fried, data centers zapped, backup power gone, is terrifying in itself. Almost every supply chain depends on modern communications. Everything we do is so embedded and dependent on technology losing power would just be scratching the surface of numerous catastrophic disasters. Nuclear power station meltdowns... oof.

hollerith 6y ago
>submarine cables fried All submarine cables laid down in the last 20 years use fiber-optics, which isn't susceptible to solar flares like copper cables are.
- lgats 6y ago
  many submarine cables have powered repeaters https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Submarine_communications_cable#Optical_telecommunications_cables https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Submarine_communications_cable... Repeaters are powered by a constant direct current passed down the conductor near the centre of the cable, so all repeaters in a cable are in series. Power feed equipment is installed at the terminal stations. Typically both ends share the current generation with one end providing a positive voltage and the other a negative voltage. A virtual earth point exists roughly halfway along the cable under normal operation. The amplifiers or repeaters derive their power from the potential difference across them. The voltage passed down the cable is often anywhere from 3000 to 15,000VDC at a current of up to 1,100mA, with the current increasing with decreasing voltage; the current at 10,000VDC is up to 1,650mA. Hence the total amount of power sent into the cable is often up to 16.5kW.
  - hollerith 6y ago
    Thank you for that. So, contrary to my first comment, a strong enough solar flare will probably destroy the submarine cables -- unless the sea water shields them.
  - conk 6y ago
    Would a solar flare induce enough current/voltage on these cable to actually cause a problem? Also by their nature of being under an ocean of conductive salt water wouldn’t there be some form of grounding providing protection?
    - techdragon 6y ago
      I’m not an expert but I know enough of the physics I’ll stick my neck out and share some relevant info. So the effects of salt water are pretty strong, but not impossible to overcome. Extremely Long Wave radio systems are actually in use to provide submerged submarines with signals indicating they need to surface and use higher bandwidth communication channels. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communication_with_submarines https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communication_with_submarines Now since there’s a level of RF penetration, you’ll get some antenna effects inducing fluctuating currents which will vary along the cable depending on the depth. On top of that, the largest CME events can and do affect the earths magnetic field, squashing and warping it. This “moves” the earths magnetic field, and electromagnetism 101 is “conductor + magnetic field + one of these two things moving = induced currents”. So the movement of the earths magnetic field will be able to induce current all the way along the cable regardless of depth, unaffected by the seawater. How significant the induced current and voltage are... and how vulnerable the powered repeaters and head end equipment are... is something I’ll defer to appropriate experts on.
- monkeynotes 6y ago
  Good point! Man, I am too old when I think of those cables I think of fat copper core slugs.
acidburnNSA 6y ago
It's funny how nuclear power station meltdowns come to mind before hospitals and building heating. Anyway nuclear plants undergo quite a bit of study and protection against these kinds of events (solar or military/terrorist EMP) and are expected to just shut down safely. [1] https://public-blog.nrc-gateway.gov/2016/07/05/update-keeping-u-s-reactors-safe-from-power-pulses/ https://public-blog.nrc-gateway.gov/2016/07/05/update-keepin... [2] https://www.utilitydive.com/news/epri-threat-of-emp-attacks-on-us-transmission-has-been-overstated/553795/ https://www.utilitydive.com/news/epri-threat-of-emp-attacks-... [3] https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesconca/2019/01/03/can-nuclear-power-plants-resist-attacks-of-electromagnetic-pulse-emp/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesconca/2019/01/03/can-nucle...
- randmeerkat 6y ago
  I would be more confident in the engineering design behind nuclear power plants if a nuclear plant in Texas hadn’t just frozen last week.
  - acidburnNSA 6y ago
    A sensor froze on the turbine island and they shut down as a precautionary measure. As with all the Texas generators of all kinds, they were not robustly winterized.
- monkeynotes 6y ago
  Famous last words "a reactor melt down isn't possible". Russian disasters aside, the Fukushima meltdown happened because the backup power needed to pump water to keep the core cool as the plant shut down failed. Now, it's not a far stretch to imagine that a CME event causes a power station shut down, as you describe, but without the generators working to keep the reactor cool as it fully shuts down you have a disaster on your hands. Furthermore chances of this sort of thing happening are increased when the whole planet is affected. As for hospitals, lots of things came to mind including hospitals. Just in my mind a nuclear disaster seemed to have a much higher potential for wiping out lives.
  - deleted 6y ago
gdubs 6y ago
Ted Koppel wrote a book about this subject (of our grid’s vulnerability in general) called “Lights Out”. Because it’s Ted Koppel, he had access to some top level officials for interviews. He came away super concerned that no one had any great answers. It was a pretty good read!
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

hollerith 6y ago

>submarine cables fried All submarine cables laid down in the last 20 years use fiber-optics, which isn't susceptible to solar flares like copper cables are.

lgats 6y ago
many submarine cables have powered repeaters https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Submarine_communications_cable#Optical_telecommunications_cables https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Submarine_communications_cable... Repeaters are powered by a constant direct current passed down the conductor near the centre of the cable, so all repeaters in a cable are in series. Power feed equipment is installed at the terminal stations. Typically both ends share the current generation with one end providing a positive voltage and the other a negative voltage. A virtual earth point exists roughly halfway along the cable under normal operation. The amplifiers or repeaters derive their power from the potential difference across them. The voltage passed down the cable is often anywhere from 3000 to 15,000VDC at a current of up to 1,100mA, with the current increasing with decreasing voltage; the current at 10,000VDC is up to 1,650mA. Hence the total amount of power sent into the cable is often up to 16.5kW.
- hollerith 6y ago
  Thank you for that. So, contrary to my first comment, a strong enough solar flare will probably destroy the submarine cables -- unless the sea water shields them.
- conk 6y ago
  Would a solar flare induce enough current/voltage on these cable to actually cause a problem? Also by their nature of being under an ocean of conductive salt water wouldn’t there be some form of grounding providing protection?
  - techdragon 6y ago
    I’m not an expert but I know enough of the physics I’ll stick my neck out and share some relevant info. So the effects of salt water are pretty strong, but not impossible to overcome. Extremely Long Wave radio systems are actually in use to provide submerged submarines with signals indicating they need to surface and use higher bandwidth communication channels. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communication_with_submarines https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communication_with_submarines Now since there’s a level of RF penetration, you’ll get some antenna effects inducing fluctuating currents which will vary along the cable depending on the depth. On top of that, the largest CME events can and do affect the earths magnetic field, squashing and warping it. This “moves” the earths magnetic field, and electromagnetism 101 is “conductor + magnetic field + one of these two things moving = induced currents”. So the movement of the earths magnetic field will be able to induce current all the way along the cable regardless of depth, unaffected by the seawater. How significant the induced current and voltage are... and how vulnerable the powered repeaters and head end equipment are... is something I’ll defer to appropriate experts on.
monkeynotes 6y ago
Good point! Man, I am too old when I think of those cables I think of fat copper core slugs.

acidburnNSA 6y ago

It's funny how nuclear power station meltdowns come to mind before hospitals and building heating. Anyway nuclear plants undergo quite a bit of study and protection against these kinds of events (solar or military/terrorist EMP) and are expected to just shut down safely. [1] https://public-blog.nrc-gateway.gov/2016/07/05/update-keeping-u-s-reactors-safe-from-power-pulses/ https://public-blog.nrc-gateway.gov/2016/07/05/update-keepin... [2] https://www.utilitydive.com/news/epri-threat-of-emp-attacks-on-us-transmission-has-been-overstated/553795/ https://www.utilitydive.com/news/epri-threat-of-emp-attacks-... [3] https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesconca/2019/01/03/can-nuclear-power-plants-resist-attacks-of-electromagnetic-pulse-emp/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesconca/2019/01/03/can-nucle...

randmeerkat 6y ago
I would be more confident in the engineering design behind nuclear power plants if a nuclear plant in Texas hadn’t just frozen last week.
- acidburnNSA 6y ago
  A sensor froze on the turbine island and they shut down as a precautionary measure. As with all the Texas generators of all kinds, they were not robustly winterized.
monkeynotes 6y ago
Famous last words "a reactor melt down isn't possible". Russian disasters aside, the Fukushima meltdown happened because the backup power needed to pump water to keep the core cool as the plant shut down failed. Now, it's not a far stretch to imagine that a CME event causes a power station shut down, as you describe, but without the generators working to keep the reactor cool as it fully shuts down you have a disaster on your hands. Furthermore chances of this sort of thing happening are increased when the whole planet is affected. As for hospitals, lots of things came to mind including hospitals. Just in my mind a nuclear disaster seemed to have a much higher potential for wiping out lives.
- deleted 6y ago

gdubs 6y ago

Ted Koppel wrote a book about this subject (of our grid’s vulnerability in general) called “Lights Out”. Because it’s Ted Koppel, he had access to some top level officials for interviews. He came away super concerned that no one had any great answers. It was a pretty good read!

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]