5 ms·

-20C is not enough

LinuxBender 6y ago
Yeah, they are compensating with heating elements. This will of course use some of the capacity. Telsa is doing heating elements as well. Heating during overnight charging should be easier if you are on grid power. Charging batteries when they are cold can harm them. Discharging them when they are cold equates to more internal resistance, so you could lose up to 15% range without heating elements. No idea how much power the heating elements draw. I would bet that Tesla's battery acquisition Maxwell [1] could make some improvements in this area. [1] - https://techcrunch.com/2019/02/04/teslas-maxwell-acquisition-aims-to-gives-its-batteries-a-boost/ https://techcrunch.com/2019/02/04/teslas-maxwell-acquisition...
- Robotbeat 6y ago
  It’s not as if internal combustion engines work great in -20C temperatures either. Often they won’t even start, and diesels typically have an (plug-in electric!) engine block heater in such climates. So I just don’t see this as a problem. Also, what proportion of the world lives in climates where it makes sense to optimize for -20C weather? Northern Europe, parts of North America... and that’s pretty much it. So while Norway (which now buys mostly electric cars... and famously a LOT of Teslas) might use cold-optimized chemistries, it’s not a major consideration for electrifying the world.
  - nitrogen 6y ago
    Also, what proportion of the world lives in climates where it makes sense to optimize for -20C weather? Dismissing problems or desires that don't affect people you know is pretty shortsighted. Also, skiing.
    - Robotbeat 6y ago
      It’s dissmissible if the comparable solution (internal combustion engines) already have to use the exact same intervention (engine block heater). I grew up in Minnesota (and visit regularly). If anything it affects me MORE than most people, and I’ve been stranded with a non-starting internal combustion engine car in the cold winter many times which is how I know the existing internal combustion engines already don’t do well. It is not uncommon for parking lots (especially in the Northern parts) to be equipped with outlets for this precise reason (and people often leave their engines running while they go into the store on particularly cold nights so they won’t be stranded). Makes electrification there actually easier in some ways as there’s already widespread infrastructure for trickle charging. Concerns which are not that well-informed are, indeed, dismissible.
    - dogma1138 6y ago
      If you drive an ICE car bought in say California to where it gets to -20c and park it outside it won’t start either since most likely the dealership didn’t include a block heater in your package.
      - drcoopster 6y ago
        Sure, maybe if the car is 40 years old. But every modern gas car (and all the diesels I've owned) will handle it just fine.
      - emkoemko 6y ago
        not true, i don't see anyone on my street plugging in and we get -30 or lower some days, though probably not good for the engine but yes they will start no problem.
  - dogma1138 6y ago
    Not sure what it’s being downvoted if you street park a car at -20 it ain’t gonna start if it doesn’t have engine block heating. If your car was sold in a region that gets that cold it was likely pre-installed if not you had to take care of that. The block heater heats up the oil which heats up the engine block it’s usually electric that can run off the battery or an external outlet. If you buy a car which was intended for warm or moderate climates and drive it in Norway or Minnesota during peak winter you won’t be starting it in the morning.
    - Robotbeat 6y ago
      This is why garages (including heated garages) are super common in Minnesota. It’s not just an extravagance. And, conveniently, garages tend to have outlets in them, very often better than just 120V 15A, too!
    - colechristensen 6y ago
      This isn’t true. Very few vehicles have engine block heaters and it’s really more of a diesel thing because the fuel gels. My car happily starts at -40, if a tad reluctantly at times. If your car isn’t old or diesel, it will probably start at any outside temperature. About the only difference is the engine coolant needs to be rated to expected low temperatures.
      - dogma1138 6y ago
        Eh? In Northern Europe new petrol cars are sold with block heaters, the recommendation is to plug in the car when if gets to -10-15c. Not only does it ensures your car can start but it also prevents damage to the engine. This is how outside parking in Northern Europe during the winter looks like: https://www.bigstockphoto.com/image-78137918/stock-photo-block-heater-pole-on-a-parking-lot https://www.bigstockphoto.com/image-78137918/stock-photo-blo...
        colechristensen 6y ago
        No such thing in the coldest metropolitan area in the US (Minneapolis/St. Paul, at least there are none which are larger and colder). Avg daily high/low of -5C/-13C in January over the last ten years. City streets are lined with cars, and only very rarely will you see an extension cord pulled to a street parked vehicle. Diesel at least was much more popular in Europe which would explain the prevalence of block heaters and the popularity of their use in gasoline/petrol engines, but that doesn't mean they are necessary. Growing up we had a block heater on our large diesel farm truck and on diesel tractors, I have never in my life used a block heater on a non-diesel vehicle having spent the first >25 years living in climates which regularly hit -30C.
  - goalieca 6y ago
    It hits -20 all the time where I live and many/most people in the neighbourhood park outside. Modern cars with healthy batteries absolutely will start.
    - Robotbeat 6y ago
      So will an electric vehicle. Of course, it’s recommended to let your internal combustion engine run a bit to warm up before highly stressing it to prevent damage. LiFePO4 batteries simply want to be warmed up before accepting a significant charge rate to prevent damage. That’s comparable.
      - war1025 6y ago
        > Of course, it’s recommended to let your internal combustion engine run a bit to warm up before highly stressing it to prevent damage. I don't have a reference handy, but I read a decade or so ago that the best way to warm up and engine is actually just to drive in a reasonable fashion.
        Robotbeat 6y ago
        Yup, that would be fine. Driving carefully would be acceptable. Just don’t gun it. (I have a lead foot, so I’ve had to watch myself...)
  - sandworm101 6y ago
    Speaking as someone who's car is currently plugged in, and who just went through a couple weeks of below -40c mornings, this is bunk. Modern IC engines start reliably at -20 without preheating. Mine started fine this morning at -22c even though I had not plugged it in. It isn't a great idea for the engine/battery in the long term, I am kicking myself a little for not plugging it in, but I had no doubt it would start (honda civic). I've even cold started it at -36 in an emergency. I generally wait for my brake/clutch/PS fluid to warm up but they have nothing to do with starting. In a modern IC engine, the real issue isn't the block heat but the battery. A bad/old/tired battery won't provide the amps when cold. For all practical purposes, anyone worried about cold starts would be better served by a battery heater/blanket than a block heater.
    - Robotbeat 6y ago
      For gasoline vehicles, you’re correct (although it certainly helps to have a block heater). Block heaters are essential for cold weather diesels. But all combustion engine vehicles need a way to start, and they rely either on muscle power (eg pull-start lawnmower) or a battery (okay, I have hill-started my car quite a few times...). In practicality it means internal combustion engines rely on batteries just as much for starting. And the chemistry they used (lead acid) wasn’t terribly good in cold weather, either. Nowadays, they sell nice compact lithium chemistry battery jumpstart packs the size of a paperback novel which will start your car. Regardless, batteries are still the solution.
    - AtlasBarfed 6y ago
      Just remember that modern car electronics stress the hell out of a car battery during car use and they don't last as long as they used to.
      - sandworm101 6y ago
        If your engine is running, your battery won't even feel those electronics. Your alternator/rectifier is pumping 13.9v so long as the engine is turning. Your 12v battery definitely should not be drained by anything unless at a very low idle/off.
  - throwaway0a5e 6y ago
    >It’s not as if internal combustion engines work great in -20C temperatures either. Pretty much every ICE made in the last 40yr, save your $110 lawnmower that was made without a choke to save $0.38, is fine at -10 to -20f so long as it has some semblance of compression. If anything the biggest problem is that batteries don't work so well in the cold so they'll have a really tough time starting an old engine with poor compression (which will be even harder to start in the cold).
Robotbeat 6y ago
Diesels need plug-in electric engine block heaters at anything like those temperatures as well. This would be the same thing.
- YarickR2 6y ago
  No they do not. They need winterized diesel fuel (kerosene added), but that's it. -30C was a "nothing special" for BMW N47 engine to start. -37C is a pour point of 0w40 engine oil, but higher temps are fine in terms of cold engine startups
thatfrenchguy 6y ago
Not a lot of people live in climates where it goes under -20C. Folks in Eastern Canada seem to be doing fine with 250 mile EVs as well.
- cmrdporcupine 6y ago
  What are you talking about? It gets under -20C routinely each winter for a couple nights every year through the whole of the northeast; upstate New York, Vermont, Maine, New Hampshire, Ontario, Quebec. Toronto is the 3rd/4th most populous city in North America (depending on how you count it). Almost every winter there's a -25C overnight. Not for days on end like where I grew up in Alberta, and not every year, but it definitely happens. There's 7 million people in the Greater Toronto / Hamilton corridor alone. 2 million people in the Montreal area. Almost a million in Quebec City, 1.4 millionish people in the Ottawa/Gatineau area. Not to mention Detroit, Windsor, Buffalo, Albany, Syracuse, Burlington, etc. etc. etc. Oh, and I'm seeing a mean minimum of -19C in Chicago for January, too, so throw in a few more million people there because that's close enough. "Not a lot indeed." Only maybe a couple dozen million people. EDIT: Oh yeah, I hear the US has a "midwest", too. I hear there's people there, too.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
fshbbdssbbgdd 6y ago
Here’s a map of the minimum yearly temperatures in the US: https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/73h7eo/winter_low_temperature_map_of_the_usa_10800x7200/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/73h7eo/winter_low_... (note C vs F on the legend) As someone who lives in California, and likes snow sports, it looks like I could run into -20C conditions in the Sierras, and certainly the Rockies (although driving that far with an electric car would probably be too annoying to attempt). It’s probably not a concern for the average Bay Area family.
- zeckalpha 6y ago
  Two weeks ago I had -32C in MN and it didn’t set any records.
  - dmoy 6y ago
    Also my family back there told me it didn't get above -20C for like a week or two in a row.
- jcranmer 6y ago
  I use a rough metric of 0°F as the lowest low to generally worry about (Fahrenheit is nice that the 0-100°F range is pretty close to the typical ambient temperature range in temperate zones). Despite living around the 5b/6a zone boundary (that's -10°F on the map), I have yet to see my car's temperature gauge report 0°F or below, so the conditions are a bit lower than I'd gauge as "lowest typical low." But that said, zones 6a/6b are definitely in the region of "yeah, I'd worry about 0°F overnight", and people in 7a will definitely worry about temperatures around 10°F if they're going to start their car. 6a-7a covers most of the population corridor in the NE US, about ⅓ the US population. Additionally, much of the Midwest is in the 0°F-is-possible territory, from St. Louis and Chicago straight through to Detroit and Pittsburgh. The general point is that starting in -20°C isn't some "well, sucks to live in Canada/Minnesota/North Dakota" concern, but rather "gee, a significant chunk of the US population has to do this on an annual basis."

-20C is not enough

Yeah, they are compensating with heating elements. This will of course use some of the capacity. Telsa is doing heating elements as well. Heating during overnight charging should be easier if you are on grid power. Charging batteries when they are cold can harm them. Discharging them when they are cold equates to more internal resistance, so you could lose up to 15% range without heating elements. No idea how much power the heating elements draw. I would bet that Tesla's battery acquisition Maxwell [1] could make some improvements in this area. [1] - https://techcrunch.com/2019/02/04/teslas-maxwell-acquisition-aims-to-gives-its-batteries-a-boost/ https://techcrunch.com/2019/02/04/teslas-maxwell-acquisition...

Robotbeat 6y ago
It’s not as if internal combustion engines work great in -20C temperatures either. Often they won’t even start, and diesels typically have an (plug-in electric!) engine block heater in such climates. So I just don’t see this as a problem. Also, what proportion of the world lives in climates where it makes sense to optimize for -20C weather? Northern Europe, parts of North America... and that’s pretty much it. So while Norway (which now buys mostly electric cars... and famously a LOT of Teslas) might use cold-optimized chemistries, it’s not a major consideration for electrifying the world.
- nitrogen 6y ago
  Also, what proportion of the world lives in climates where it makes sense to optimize for -20C weather? Dismissing problems or desires that don't affect people you know is pretty shortsighted. Also, skiing.
  - Robotbeat 6y ago
    It’s dissmissible if the comparable solution (internal combustion engines) already have to use the exact same intervention (engine block heater). I grew up in Minnesota (and visit regularly). If anything it affects me MORE than most people, and I’ve been stranded with a non-starting internal combustion engine car in the cold winter many times which is how I know the existing internal combustion engines already don’t do well. It is not uncommon for parking lots (especially in the Northern parts) to be equipped with outlets for this precise reason (and people often leave their engines running while they go into the store on particularly cold nights so they won’t be stranded). Makes electrification there actually easier in some ways as there’s already widespread infrastructure for trickle charging. Concerns which are not that well-informed are, indeed, dismissible.
  - dogma1138 6y ago
    If you drive an ICE car bought in say California to where it gets to -20c and park it outside it won’t start either since most likely the dealership didn’t include a block heater in your package.
    - drcoopster 6y ago
      Sure, maybe if the car is 40 years old. But every modern gas car (and all the diesels I've owned) will handle it just fine.
    - emkoemko 6y ago
      not true, i don't see anyone on my street plugging in and we get -30 or lower some days, though probably not good for the engine but yes they will start no problem.
- dogma1138 6y ago
  Not sure what it’s being downvoted if you street park a car at -20 it ain’t gonna start if it doesn’t have engine block heating. If your car was sold in a region that gets that cold it was likely pre-installed if not you had to take care of that. The block heater heats up the oil which heats up the engine block it’s usually electric that can run off the battery or an external outlet. If you buy a car which was intended for warm or moderate climates and drive it in Norway or Minnesota during peak winter you won’t be starting it in the morning.
  - Robotbeat 6y ago
    This is why garages (including heated garages) are super common in Minnesota. It’s not just an extravagance. And, conveniently, garages tend to have outlets in them, very often better than just 120V 15A, too!
  - colechristensen 6y ago
    This isn’t true. Very few vehicles have engine block heaters and it’s really more of a diesel thing because the fuel gels. My car happily starts at -40, if a tad reluctantly at times. If your car isn’t old or diesel, it will probably start at any outside temperature. About the only difference is the engine coolant needs to be rated to expected low temperatures.
    - dogma1138 6y ago
      Eh? In Northern Europe new petrol cars are sold with block heaters, the recommendation is to plug in the car when if gets to -10-15c. Not only does it ensures your car can start but it also prevents damage to the engine. This is how outside parking in Northern Europe during the winter looks like: https://www.bigstockphoto.com/image-78137918/stock-photo-block-heater-pole-on-a-parking-lot https://www.bigstockphoto.com/image-78137918/stock-photo-blo...
      - colechristensen 6y ago
        No such thing in the coldest metropolitan area in the US (Minneapolis/St. Paul, at least there are none which are larger and colder). Avg daily high/low of -5C/-13C in January over the last ten years. City streets are lined with cars, and only very rarely will you see an extension cord pulled to a street parked vehicle. Diesel at least was much more popular in Europe which would explain the prevalence of block heaters and the popularity of their use in gasoline/petrol engines, but that doesn't mean they are necessary. Growing up we had a block heater on our large diesel farm truck and on diesel tractors, I have never in my life used a block heater on a non-diesel vehicle having spent the first >25 years living in climates which regularly hit -30C.
- goalieca 6y ago
  It hits -20 all the time where I live and many/most people in the neighbourhood park outside. Modern cars with healthy batteries absolutely will start.
  - Robotbeat 6y ago
    So will an electric vehicle. Of course, it’s recommended to let your internal combustion engine run a bit to warm up before highly stressing it to prevent damage. LiFePO4 batteries simply want to be warmed up before accepting a significant charge rate to prevent damage. That’s comparable.
    - war1025 6y ago
      > Of course, it’s recommended to let your internal combustion engine run a bit to warm up before highly stressing it to prevent damage. I don't have a reference handy, but I read a decade or so ago that the best way to warm up and engine is actually just to drive in a reasonable fashion.
      - Robotbeat 6y ago
        Yup, that would be fine. Driving carefully would be acceptable. Just don’t gun it. (I have a lead foot, so I’ve had to watch myself...)
- sandworm101 6y ago
  Speaking as someone who's car is currently plugged in, and who just went through a couple weeks of below -40c mornings, this is bunk. Modern IC engines start reliably at -20 without preheating. Mine started fine this morning at -22c even though I had not plugged it in. It isn't a great idea for the engine/battery in the long term, I am kicking myself a little for not plugging it in, but I had no doubt it would start (honda civic). I've even cold started it at -36 in an emergency. I generally wait for my brake/clutch/PS fluid to warm up but they have nothing to do with starting. In a modern IC engine, the real issue isn't the block heat but the battery. A bad/old/tired battery won't provide the amps when cold. For all practical purposes, anyone worried about cold starts would be better served by a battery heater/blanket than a block heater.
  - Robotbeat 6y ago
    For gasoline vehicles, you’re correct (although it certainly helps to have a block heater). Block heaters are essential for cold weather diesels. But all combustion engine vehicles need a way to start, and they rely either on muscle power (eg pull-start lawnmower) or a battery (okay, I have hill-started my car quite a few times...). In practicality it means internal combustion engines rely on batteries just as much for starting. And the chemistry they used (lead acid) wasn’t terribly good in cold weather, either. Nowadays, they sell nice compact lithium chemistry battery jumpstart packs the size of a paperback novel which will start your car. Regardless, batteries are still the solution.
  - AtlasBarfed 6y ago
    Just remember that modern car electronics stress the hell out of a car battery during car use and they don't last as long as they used to.
    - sandworm101 6y ago
      If your engine is running, your battery won't even feel those electronics. Your alternator/rectifier is pumping 13.9v so long as the engine is turning. Your 12v battery definitely should not be drained by anything unless at a very low idle/off.
- throwaway0a5e 6y ago
  >It’s not as if internal combustion engines work great in -20C temperatures either. Pretty much every ICE made in the last 40yr, save your $110 lawnmower that was made without a choke to save $0.38, is fine at -10 to -20f so long as it has some semblance of compression. If anything the biggest problem is that batteries don't work so well in the cold so they'll have a really tough time starting an old engine with poor compression (which will be even harder to start in the cold).

Robotbeat 6y ago

Diesels need plug-in electric engine block heaters at anything like those temperatures as well. This would be the same thing.

YarickR2 6y ago
No they do not. They need winterized diesel fuel (kerosene added), but that's it. -30C was a "nothing special" for BMW N47 engine to start. -37C is a pour point of 0w40 engine oil, but higher temps are fine in terms of cold engine startups

thatfrenchguy 6y ago

Not a lot of people live in climates where it goes under -20C. Folks in Eastern Canada seem to be doing fine with 250 mile EVs as well.

cmrdporcupine 6y ago
What are you talking about? It gets under -20C routinely each winter for a couple nights every year through the whole of the northeast; upstate New York, Vermont, Maine, New Hampshire, Ontario, Quebec. Toronto is the 3rd/4th most populous city in North America (depending on how you count it). Almost every winter there's a -25C overnight. Not for days on end like where I grew up in Alberta, and not every year, but it definitely happens. There's 7 million people in the Greater Toronto / Hamilton corridor alone. 2 million people in the Montreal area. Almost a million in Quebec City, 1.4 millionish people in the Ottawa/Gatineau area. Not to mention Detroit, Windsor, Buffalo, Albany, Syracuse, Burlington, etc. etc. etc. Oh, and I'm seeing a mean minimum of -19C in Chicago for January, too, so throw in a few more million people there because that's close enough. "Not a lot indeed." Only maybe a couple dozen million people. EDIT: Oh yeah, I hear the US has a "midwest", too. I hear there's people there, too.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

fshbbdssbbgdd 6y ago

Here’s a map of the minimum yearly temperatures in the US: https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/73h7eo/winter_low_temperature_map_of_the_usa_10800x7200/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/73h7eo/winter_low_... (note C vs F on the legend) As someone who lives in California, and likes snow sports, it looks like I could run into -20C conditions in the Sierras, and certainly the Rockies (although driving that far with an electric car would probably be too annoying to attempt). It’s probably not a concern for the average Bay Area family.

zeckalpha 6y ago
Two weeks ago I had -32C in MN and it didn’t set any records.
- dmoy 6y ago
  Also my family back there told me it didn't get above -20C for like a week or two in a row.
jcranmer 6y ago
I use a rough metric of 0°F as the lowest low to generally worry about (Fahrenheit is nice that the 0-100°F range is pretty close to the typical ambient temperature range in temperate zones). Despite living around the 5b/6a zone boundary (that's -10°F on the map), I have yet to see my car's temperature gauge report 0°F or below, so the conditions are a bit lower than I'd gauge as "lowest typical low." But that said, zones 6a/6b are definitely in the region of "yeah, I'd worry about 0°F overnight", and people in 7a will definitely worry about temperatures around 10°F if they're going to start their car. 6a-7a covers most of the population corridor in the NE US, about ⅓ the US population. Additionally, much of the Midwest is in the 0°F-is-possible territory, from St. Louis and Chicago straight through to Detroit and Pittsburgh. The general point is that starting in -20°C isn't some "well, sucks to live in Canada/Minnesota/North Dakota" concern, but rather "gee, a significant chunk of the US population has to do this on an annual basis."