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It's because there are so many young people who think that they absolutely want to be video game developers, so it simply doesn't matter how much the companies

by jerf 6y ago

It's because there are so many young people who think that they absolutely want to be video game developers, so it simply doesn't matter how much the companies abuse them, there's a fresh horde of possibly-misguided fresh faces right behind them. Pretty much every other programming job is in a shortage, but here there's a glut. I say "possibly-misguided" because there are some people for whom that is their one and only dream, and if that is their choice, hey, great. Go for it. I just want people to go into it with open eyes. However, I think the bulk of such people are simply misinformed about A: the nature of game programming and B: the nature of non-game programming. For the most part, they're a lot more similar than a lot of young people realize. You don't go into games programming and get to "design games"; you're going to consume tickets and do a lot of repetitive scut work. Frankly your odds of finding a good job where you're self-directed and not entirely doing scut work is better outside of the game industry. So... do your part... spread the word that the games industry is mostly bad jobs and the non-games industry actually has a lot of good stuff in it, so that by giving young people a better understanding of the real situation they can make better choice, and help starve the games industry of its continuous supply of fresh-faced naive grads to exploit.

bluefirebrand 6y ago
This is absolutely the trajectory I took. I wanted so badly to make games. Still do, one of my life goals is to make a game that I actually publish. But I had some great professors in university that steered me away from the game industry. I'm quite happy working as a web dev now and I can do games as a hobby.
finikytou 6y ago
I don't think that is the reason. The main reason is that there isn't enough competition. Video Game Companies are pretty much in a monopoly. No one is making a game like GTA. No one else is making a football game (You need the license), No one else is making doom. No one else is making Counter Strike. Games became brands. The only thing that drives you out of business is your own greed of recycling your franchises/ideas. Oh and also many of those companies do not need that many of the "expensive" devs because many of those video game companies are using middlewares like unity or unreal engine. With more competitions better video game companies would hire better engineer at better salaries. that will lift everyone else.
- jerf 6y ago
  Your explanations are all demand-side. That doesn't account for why the supply-side of programmers for games is so high. Every game programmer also has the skills necessary to do a good portion of non-gaming jobs. The thing that game companies have a monopoly on is not on jobs the games programmers can do. As evidence of what I'm talking about I also cite the absolutely huge number of "indie" developers, the vast majority of them not being the ones you've heard of, because most of them aren't famous and face sales figures in the hundreds, if not dozens. Many of them are actively taking a negative salary (that is, burning somebody's savings) to work in the game industry.
  - TheCapn 6y ago
    I think it be both at the same time. People make weird career choices for the perception of prestige or being able to call themselves part of a team. I got a friend who is an Agricultural Mechanic who works for some local owned companies. A few years ago John Deere built a facility nearby and you'd be surprised how many mechanics, who by all accounts liked their jobs, moved to work for John Deere for less pay, less benefits. Video games aren't that much different. People will harm their own career goals thinking they can work for a brand name when an unknown company might have a better fit. I'm sure they have valid reasons for making the decisions they do, but from the outside looking in, it just looks like fanboyisms.
- bobthepanda 6y ago
  It’s abusing the definition of monopoly. There isn’t a single super-dominant games company choking out competition. In fact, companies steal each others’ lunch all the time; Fortnite surpassed PUBG, Cities Skylines from a small Finnish dev surpassed EA’s SimCity, and Stardew Valley was created by a single developer who surpassed Harvest Moon before him. Monopoly doesn’t just mean “this company is bigger than I’d like.”
  - andi999 6y ago
    Also if you look at ID software, they were just a tiny (but very skilled and highly dedicated) team who churned out one game per month for a year.
Kranar 6y ago
I have to disagree with this, at least as far as the statistics are concerned. According to Stack Overflow [1] the median age of a developer is 33 years old, whereas the median age of a game developer is 31 years old [2]. That's not likely to be a big enough difference to substantiate your position. [1] https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2020#developer-profile-age-and-experience-by-country https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2020#developer-pro... [2] https://igda.org/resources-archive/diversity-in-the-game-industry-report-2016/ https://igda.org/resources-archive/diversity-in-the-game-ind...
- lucisferre 6y ago
  Stack Overflow is not exactly validated market research. Comparing two completely different sources of statistical data with different collection methodologies is not evidence.
  - Kranar 6y ago
    It's not proof, but it's absolutely evidence and it's enough evidence to place the burden that the video game industry consists mostly of young people back on the person making the claim. If there is such evidence, by all means produce it.
- chowells 6y ago
  The median age doesn't contradict the above model at all. What it tells you is that of the developers employed in the game industry at any given time, half of them are under 31. But it doesn't say a thing about the churn below that age. You can have a bunch of people who jump in at 23, get super exploited, and burn out in two years balance against one single person over the median age, so long as that stream of younger people is serial. The median is unchanged, but a lot more people leave the industry feeling exploited and abused by it than remain.
  - Kranar 6y ago
    That wouldn't be possible without a corresponding behavior in those above the median age as well. If what you said was true and there's a disproportionate group of people below the median age leaving the industry without an equal number of people above the median age leaving, then you'd get a constantly rising median age over time and at this point that age would have be considerably older than 31 years. I am not disputing that the game industry has a lot of churn. I'm disputing that the game industry has substantially more churn among younger people than older people and that the churn is significantly different from the rest of the software development industry. It's not so much that young people are uniquely exploited and leave after a couple of years, it's that the number of software developers doubles every 5 years so that there is a huge imbalance of young people in the industry in general.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
jobu 6y ago
> I say "possibly-misguided" because there are some people for whom that is their one and only dream There's also a ton of societal pressure to "follow your dreams" or "pursue your passion", and people conflate their passion and enjoyment of playing video games for what it would be like to make the games. First off, people need to differentiate the enjoyment of something with the making of it. Not the perfect example, but I like to eat meat, yet I know I would hate to be a butcher. Second, if you really enjoy something it's often better to keep it as a hobby. Most people find all the joy gets sucked out of their passion when it also involves the business of selling, supporting customers, and managing costs.
- ghaff 6y ago
  Furthermore, don't conflate the apparent glamour (which is at least apparent) of those at the top of their profession with the working routine of the vast majority. For example, the very top professional photographers probably mostly have a pretty good life. The university photographer who spends their days shooting pictures of alumni receiving awards? Not so much.
- willismichael 6y ago
  > Not the perfect example, but I like to eat meat, yet I know I would hate to be a butcher. That's actually a way better analogy than you think.
munificent 6y ago
I worked in the game industry for eight years before leaving and I have a more nuanced perspective on this. Yes, the large supply of aspiring game devs has a lot to do with it. And I think the crunch is driven in part by a lack of project management expertise caused by the brain drain that endemic crunch leads to. But it's not just that. Every job has a mixture of tangible and intangible rewards. Game development scores relatively poorly on the tangibles: less pay, fewer benefits, less free time. But for many people, it scores incredibly highly on the intangibles: - Spending your day writing code that makes insurance rate calculations comply with the latest changes to Iowa tax law versus making an orc explode if you hit it with an axe just right. - Working in an office that lets you wear chinos on casual Friday versus wearing whatever you like, coming in when you like, and being surrounded by culture and people that resonate with you. - Working with accountants and lawyers versus artists and sound designers. - Working on a product used begrudgingly by employees of some giant accounting contractor versus make a game you love to play. - Sitting next to folks doing the bare minimum just to get a paycheck versus the comradery of being on a team that really believes in what they're doing. - Writing code that's difficult because it encodes Byzantine legal regulations versus code that's difficult because it uses the latest graphics algorithms to push hardware as much as possible. - Being at a company no one's heard of making software know one knows versus being at a brand your friends all know working on products they're excited about. (Anecdote: When I flew to Orlando to interview at EA, I ended up mentioning it to a guy sitting next to me at the airport. He looked at me like an absolute celebrity. "Dude, you're gonna be working on Madden?" I still remember that moment.) So, yeah, the hours and the pay suck. But when you're in your twenties you tend to have a lot of time and not a lot of bills. Working on something that resonates with your peers, your culture, and your passions is really valuable. I wish big companies exploited that less, sure. But you see low pay and crunch even at small non-exploitive companies which implies to me that much of this is simply people rationally trading off tangible rewards for intangible ones that are more meaningful to them. I find it really weird how much software engineers criticize taking a pay cut to make games while simultaneously romanticizing leaving tech completely to become a farmer, writer, chef, social worker, etc. (all of which, for the record, have miserable hours and shit pay). Game devs are essentially doing the same thing but at least they get to use their tech skills in the process. I'm glad I'm not at EA anymore because my values and priorities changed. But I don't regret my time there and it got me my current job at Google. If I'd spent that time chasing some other low-paying dream like writing fiction, it's much less likely I would have been able to make that transition.

by jerf 6y ago

bluefirebrand 6y ago

This is absolutely the trajectory I took. I wanted so badly to make games. Still do, one of my life goals is to make a game that I actually publish. But I had some great professors in university that steered me away from the game industry. I'm quite happy working as a web dev now and I can do games as a hobby.

finikytou 6y ago

I don't think that is the reason. The main reason is that there isn't enough competition. Video Game Companies are pretty much in a monopoly. No one is making a game like GTA. No one else is making a football game (You need the license), No one else is making doom. No one else is making Counter Strike. Games became brands. The only thing that drives you out of business is your own greed of recycling your franchises/ideas. Oh and also many of those companies do not need that many of the "expensive" devs because many of those video game companies are using middlewares like unity or unreal engine. With more competitions better video game companies would hire better engineer at better salaries. that will lift everyone else.

jerf 6y ago
Your explanations are all demand-side. That doesn't account for why the supply-side of programmers for games is so high. Every game programmer also has the skills necessary to do a good portion of non-gaming jobs. The thing that game companies have a monopoly on is not on jobs the games programmers can do. As evidence of what I'm talking about I also cite the absolutely huge number of "indie" developers, the vast majority of them not being the ones you've heard of, because most of them aren't famous and face sales figures in the hundreds, if not dozens. Many of them are actively taking a negative salary (that is, burning somebody's savings) to work in the game industry.
- TheCapn 6y ago
  I think it be both at the same time. People make weird career choices for the perception of prestige or being able to call themselves part of a team. I got a friend who is an Agricultural Mechanic who works for some local owned companies. A few years ago John Deere built a facility nearby and you'd be surprised how many mechanics, who by all accounts liked their jobs, moved to work for John Deere for less pay, less benefits. Video games aren't that much different. People will harm their own career goals thinking they can work for a brand name when an unknown company might have a better fit. I'm sure they have valid reasons for making the decisions they do, but from the outside looking in, it just looks like fanboyisms.
bobthepanda 6y ago
It’s abusing the definition of monopoly. There isn’t a single super-dominant games company choking out competition. In fact, companies steal each others’ lunch all the time; Fortnite surpassed PUBG, Cities Skylines from a small Finnish dev surpassed EA’s SimCity, and Stardew Valley was created by a single developer who surpassed Harvest Moon before him. Monopoly doesn’t just mean “this company is bigger than I’d like.”
- andi999 6y ago
  Also if you look at ID software, they were just a tiny (but very skilled and highly dedicated) team who churned out one game per month for a year.

Kranar 6y ago

I have to disagree with this, at least as far as the statistics are concerned. According to Stack Overflow [1] the median age of a developer is 33 years old, whereas the median age of a game developer is 31 years old [2]. That's not likely to be a big enough difference to substantiate your position. [1] https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2020#developer-profile-age-and-experience-by-country https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2020#developer-pro... [2] https://igda.org/resources-archive/diversity-in-the-game-industry-report-2016/ https://igda.org/resources-archive/diversity-in-the-game-ind...

lucisferre 6y ago
Stack Overflow is not exactly validated market research. Comparing two completely different sources of statistical data with different collection methodologies is not evidence.
- Kranar 6y ago
  It's not proof, but it's absolutely evidence and it's enough evidence to place the burden that the video game industry consists mostly of young people back on the person making the claim. If there is such evidence, by all means produce it.
chowells 6y ago
The median age doesn't contradict the above model at all. What it tells you is that of the developers employed in the game industry at any given time, half of them are under 31. But it doesn't say a thing about the churn below that age. You can have a bunch of people who jump in at 23, get super exploited, and burn out in two years balance against one single person over the median age, so long as that stream of younger people is serial. The median is unchanged, but a lot more people leave the industry feeling exploited and abused by it than remain.
- Kranar 6y ago
  That wouldn't be possible without a corresponding behavior in those above the median age as well. If what you said was true and there's a disproportionate group of people below the median age leaving the industry without an equal number of people above the median age leaving, then you'd get a constantly rising median age over time and at this point that age would have be considerably older than 31 years. I am not disputing that the game industry has a lot of churn. I'm disputing that the game industry has substantially more churn among younger people than older people and that the churn is significantly different from the rest of the software development industry. It's not so much that young people are uniquely exploited and leave after a couple of years, it's that the number of software developers doubles every 5 years so that there is a huge imbalance of young people in the industry in general.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

jobu 6y ago

> I say "possibly-misguided" because there are some people for whom that is their one and only dream There's also a ton of societal pressure to "follow your dreams" or "pursue your passion", and people conflate their passion and enjoyment of playing video games for what it would be like to make the games. First off, people need to differentiate the enjoyment of something with the making of it. Not the perfect example, but I like to eat meat, yet I know I would hate to be a butcher. Second, if you really enjoy something it's often better to keep it as a hobby. Most people find all the joy gets sucked out of their passion when it also involves the business of selling, supporting customers, and managing costs.

ghaff 6y ago
Furthermore, don't conflate the apparent glamour (which is at least apparent) of those at the top of their profession with the working routine of the vast majority. For example, the very top professional photographers probably mostly have a pretty good life. The university photographer who spends their days shooting pictures of alumni receiving awards? Not so much.
willismichael 6y ago
> Not the perfect example, but I like to eat meat, yet I know I would hate to be a butcher. That's actually a way better analogy than you think.

munificent 6y ago

I worked in the game industry for eight years before leaving and I have a more nuanced perspective on this. Yes, the large supply of aspiring game devs has a lot to do with it. And I think the crunch is driven in part by a lack of project management expertise caused by the brain drain that endemic crunch leads to. But it's not just that. Every job has a mixture of tangible and intangible rewards. Game development scores relatively poorly on the tangibles: less pay, fewer benefits, less free time. But for many people, it scores incredibly highly on the intangibles: - Spending your day writing code that makes insurance rate calculations comply with the latest changes to Iowa tax law versus making an orc explode if you hit it with an axe just right. - Working in an office that lets you wear chinos on casual Friday versus wearing whatever you like, coming in when you like, and being surrounded by culture and people that resonate with you. - Working with accountants and lawyers versus artists and sound designers. - Working on a product used begrudgingly by employees of some giant accounting contractor versus make a game you love to play. - Sitting next to folks doing the bare minimum just to get a paycheck versus the comradery of being on a team that really believes in what they're doing. - Writing code that's difficult because it encodes Byzantine legal regulations versus code that's difficult because it uses the latest graphics algorithms to push hardware as much as possible. - Being at a company no one's heard of making software know one knows versus being at a brand your friends all know working on products they're excited about. (Anecdote: When I flew to Orlando to interview at EA, I ended up mentioning it to a guy sitting next to me at the airport. He looked at me like an absolute celebrity. "Dude, you're gonna be working on Madden?" I still remember that moment.) So, yeah, the hours and the pay suck. But when you're in your twenties you tend to have a lot of time and not a lot of bills. Working on something that resonates with your peers, your culture, and your passions is really valuable. I wish big companies exploited that less, sure. But you see low pay and crunch even at small non-exploitive companies which implies to me that much of this is simply people rationally trading off tangible rewards for intangible ones that are more meaningful to them. I find it really weird how much software engineers criticize taking a pay cut to make games while simultaneously romanticizing leaving tech completely to become a farmer, writer, chef, social worker, etc. (all of which, for the record, have miserable hours and shit pay). Game devs are essentially doing the same thing but at least they get to use their tech skills in the process. I'm glad I'm not at EA anymore because my values and priorities changed. But I don't regret my time there and it got me my current job at Google. If I'd spent that time chasing some other low-paying dream like writing fiction, it's much less likely I would have been able to make that transition.