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For some reason I have a bad feeling about this update actually getting released. I'm worried that FB is going to convince some judge to tell Apple they can't

For some reason I have a bad feeling about this update actually getting released. I'm worried that FB is going to convince some judge to tell Apple they can't do this, and delay it for months or years. Maybe (hopefully) this is an irrational worry, but you never know the extent to which people will go when billions of dollars are on the line.

move-on-by 6y ago
I know nothing about legal system, but it seems like Apple could make an argument that they are helping their apps be GDPR and CCPA compliant? That could explain the strange wording "Ask app not to track" - apps can still track, just not as much as before, so perhaps more of a compliance permission. Just speculation.
- Someone 6y ago
  I think they say “Ask app not to track” because, if they say “Make app not track you” or something similar, they open themselves to huge lawsuits if (much more likely when) any app turns out to keep tracking users.
- newscracker 6y ago
  I don’t have the link handy, but Apple’s policies on this require apps not to track users across apps through other means if a user chooses “Ask App not to Track” at the prompt. The prompt text is just to show that Apple cannot technically prevent tracking even when a user tells the app they don’t want to be tracked across apps. There are a lot of shady practices being spread through common/popular SDKs used by apps.
rchaud 6y ago
I think what's more likely than any kind of legal injunction is that FB and Apple will come to a "mutual understanding". Maybe Facebook will license Apple Maps (for a princely sum) and make some symbolic compromise on data collection that lets Apple water down the permission dialogs.
- stingraycharles 6y ago
  I’d argue that Apple executives realize that privacy is one of the unique USPs of Apple compared to their main competitor, since the value exchange between Apple and their customers is simpler (customer pays Apple money, Apple delivers hardware/software). Now that so much news has spread about these privacy additions, Apple selling out will actively hurt this image they have spent a lot of time building. It’s going to have to be an extremely lucrative agreement between them and Facebook for it to be worth it.
  - rorykoehler 6y ago
    I thought that until I realised Apple also have a billion dollar ads business
    - sodality2 6y ago
      The problem is Apple relies on hardware sales. FB's entire business from the top down is ad money. And source for a billion dollar ad business? That sounds way higher than my initial impression. (And google paying to be the default SE is not advertising imo)
      - rorykoehler 6y ago
        https://9to5mac.com/2019/11/15/apple-ad-revenue/ https://9to5mac.com/2019/11/15/apple-ad-revenue/
        whynaut 6y ago
        Well.. > Apple’s most recent earnings report revealed that it earned $12.51B from Services in calendar Q3/fiscal Q4, though there is no breakdown on how much of this comes from ad revenue. Notice the 'could's: > Samik Chatterjee argued the company could leverage the millions of users who search its App Store and Safari browser daily to generate the stellar growth seen by Facebook and Google in recent years. > he launch of Apple TV+, coupled with Apple Inc’s foray into digital services, could help the company increase its income from advertising by more than five fold to $11 billion annually This article is literally just speculation. Actually, it's quoting someone's speculation. > The report seems highly speculative…
balls187 6y ago
What would be Facebook's legal argument in the US?
- zonethundery 6y ago
  That Apple is unfairly privileging its own ads business. It's a tough cookie though; the offending behavior is simply Apple's truthful (if arguably hyperbolic) notice and consent popup.
  - kergonath 6y ago
    It could work if they demonstrate that Apple does track its user across apps for advertising purposes without showing consent dialogs. I am more than a bit skeptical, but you never know.
  - kml 6y ago
    iAds will definitely be privileged. If you read the documentation on what is available to Apple vs. others, you will see Apple's own ad business will definitely benefit from this.
    - zepto 6y ago
      iAds will definitely not be able to track user behavior within apps the way Facebook does. If there is some documentation you claim shows iAds being privileged, please post a link.
    - miskin 6y ago
      You mean iAd that was discontinued in 2016? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IAd https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IAd
    - j16sdiz 6y ago
      Wikipedia said iAd have been discontinued. Did I miss something?
  - Teever 6y ago
    Is that illegal though? Apple isn't a monopoly -- they're a walled garden. I'm all for regulations that force Apple to open up their hardware so that people can install different software on it, or to disable the walled-garden mode of their software platform akin to how you can install lineageOS or freedroid on android devices but I don't think it's reasonable to mandate that Apple must allow Facebook to do something with their software simply because Apple does it with theirs.
arrosenberg 6y ago
Unless FB is preparing an incredibly ironic antitrust/market competition case against Apple, I'm not sure what they'd have standing on.
- zonethundery 6y ago
  They are almost certainly doing this; question is whether they will file it. FB's noise around this feels very out of character, even for something that's devolved into a personal conflict. They may be truly scared of the update.
- throwawayboise 6y ago
  FB undoubtedly knows enough about powerful judges and politicians to get what they want. J. Edgar Hoover's wildest dreams didn't contemplate what Facebook can do.
- newscracker 6y ago
  Facebook has been reported as assisting Epic Games in its lawsuit and been preparing for months for lawsuits against Apple. For the kind of company it is, it might pull a “Peter Thiel on Gawker” move, though it won’t reflect well on its name. But not enough people seem to care much about Facebook’s practices or what it does. After the uproar over WhatsApp’s upcoming policy change on data sharing with Facebook, several people moved to other chat platforms. But I still see those people stuck with WhatsApp and also using Facebook and Instagram even while knowing that these are all part of the same company.
mr_toad 6y ago
The more likely scenario in the long run is that Apple is forced to allow alternative App stores, which will probably be riddled with malware and spyware.

move-on-by 6y ago

I know nothing about legal system, but it seems like Apple could make an argument that they are helping their apps be GDPR and CCPA compliant? That could explain the strange wording "Ask app not to track" - apps can still track, just not as much as before, so perhaps more of a compliance permission. Just speculation.

Someone 6y ago
I think they say “Ask app not to track” because, if they say “Make app not track you” or something similar, they open themselves to huge lawsuits if (much more likely when) any app turns out to keep tracking users.
newscracker 6y ago
I don’t have the link handy, but Apple’s policies on this require apps not to track users across apps through other means if a user chooses “Ask App not to Track” at the prompt. The prompt text is just to show that Apple cannot technically prevent tracking even when a user tells the app they don’t want to be tracked across apps. There are a lot of shady practices being spread through common/popular SDKs used by apps.

rchaud 6y ago

I think what's more likely than any kind of legal injunction is that FB and Apple will come to a "mutual understanding". Maybe Facebook will license Apple Maps (for a princely sum) and make some symbolic compromise on data collection that lets Apple water down the permission dialogs.

stingraycharles 6y ago
I’d argue that Apple executives realize that privacy is one of the unique USPs of Apple compared to their main competitor, since the value exchange between Apple and their customers is simpler (customer pays Apple money, Apple delivers hardware/software). Now that so much news has spread about these privacy additions, Apple selling out will actively hurt this image they have spent a lot of time building. It’s going to have to be an extremely lucrative agreement between them and Facebook for it to be worth it.
- rorykoehler 6y ago
  I thought that until I realised Apple also have a billion dollar ads business
  - sodality2 6y ago
    The problem is Apple relies on hardware sales. FB's entire business from the top down is ad money. And source for a billion dollar ad business? That sounds way higher than my initial impression. (And google paying to be the default SE is not advertising imo)
    - rorykoehler 6y ago
      https://9to5mac.com/2019/11/15/apple-ad-revenue/ https://9to5mac.com/2019/11/15/apple-ad-revenue/
      - whynaut 6y ago
        Well.. > Apple’s most recent earnings report revealed that it earned $12.51B from Services in calendar Q3/fiscal Q4, though there is no breakdown on how much of this comes from ad revenue. Notice the 'could's: > Samik Chatterjee argued the company could leverage the millions of users who search its App Store and Safari browser daily to generate the stellar growth seen by Facebook and Google in recent years. > he launch of Apple TV+, coupled with Apple Inc’s foray into digital services, could help the company increase its income from advertising by more than five fold to $11 billion annually This article is literally just speculation. Actually, it's quoting someone's speculation. > The report seems highly speculative…

balls187 6y ago

What would be Facebook's legal argument in the US?

zonethundery 6y ago
That Apple is unfairly privileging its own ads business. It's a tough cookie though; the offending behavior is simply Apple's truthful (if arguably hyperbolic) notice and consent popup.
- kergonath 6y ago
  It could work if they demonstrate that Apple does track its user across apps for advertising purposes without showing consent dialogs. I am more than a bit skeptical, but you never know.
- kml 6y ago
  iAds will definitely be privileged. If you read the documentation on what is available to Apple vs. others, you will see Apple's own ad business will definitely benefit from this.
  - zepto 6y ago
    iAds will definitely not be able to track user behavior within apps the way Facebook does. If there is some documentation you claim shows iAds being privileged, please post a link.
  - miskin 6y ago
    You mean iAd that was discontinued in 2016? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IAd https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IAd
  - j16sdiz 6y ago
    Wikipedia said iAd have been discontinued. Did I miss something?
- Teever 6y ago
  Is that illegal though? Apple isn't a monopoly -- they're a walled garden. I'm all for regulations that force Apple to open up their hardware so that people can install different software on it, or to disable the walled-garden mode of their software platform akin to how you can install lineageOS or freedroid on android devices but I don't think it's reasonable to mandate that Apple must allow Facebook to do something with their software simply because Apple does it with theirs.

arrosenberg 6y ago

Unless FB is preparing an incredibly ironic antitrust/market competition case against Apple, I'm not sure what they'd have standing on.

zonethundery 6y ago
They are almost certainly doing this; question is whether they will file it. FB's noise around this feels very out of character, even for something that's devolved into a personal conflict. They may be truly scared of the update.
throwawayboise 6y ago
FB undoubtedly knows enough about powerful judges and politicians to get what they want. J. Edgar Hoover's wildest dreams didn't contemplate what Facebook can do.
newscracker 6y ago
Facebook has been reported as assisting Epic Games in its lawsuit and been preparing for months for lawsuits against Apple. For the kind of company it is, it might pull a “Peter Thiel on Gawker” move, though it won’t reflect well on its name. But not enough people seem to care much about Facebook’s practices or what it does. After the uproar over WhatsApp’s upcoming policy change on data sharing with Facebook, several people moved to other chat platforms. But I still see those people stuck with WhatsApp and also using Facebook and Instagram even while knowing that these are all part of the same company.

mr_toad 6y ago

The more likely scenario in the long run is that Apple is forced to allow alternative App stores, which will probably be riddled with malware and spyware.