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Yes because whatever you used for app specific configuration like libraries and packages is now done in the Dockerfile and containerized. So the same thing run

Yes because whatever you used for app specific configuration like libraries and packages is now done in the Dockerfile and containerized. So the same thing run locally is run in the cloud. Then as far as the infrastructure for running code such as load balancers, service discovery, docker.. That is all given to you just by running K8s. So you are more concerned with shipping immutable containers to k8s than provisioning "machines". Then you can focus on containers which can be run, tested and built wherever without the fear of broken updates or one thing stepping on another. We found back in the days of ansible and chef that we had very low confidence in upgrading hosts live. So we would then do immutable hosts and blue green deploy them to production. But why think in the scope of hosts and VMs when really you have some application that needs to run somewhere. K8s IMO isn't the end all, I think eventually we will get to something that doesn't need containers at all and you run just processes. But it is a good step for now. Also once you have your stuff containerized it makes other non k8s stuff easy like AWS Lambda Edit: Also yes you can use those to set up generic k8s nodes but when we ran bare metal we used kubeadm to make coreOS immutable nodes. I don't think that is used anymore haven't checked but really the best way to set up k8s is to deploy really thin hosts that have nothing but Docker and k8s. VMware and others have solutions for this too where you don't have to mess with building hosts.

deleted 6y ago
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Ianvdl 6y ago
Thanks for the detailed response. It looks like I've still got a lot to learn - I've just lately been playing with LXC to get more familiarised with containers. I've previously looked at Helm apps and they seemed to be very similar to Puppet manifests. From what you said it seems like the approach is to have immutable containers for each application, set up via Dockerfiles, which somehow also simplifies the upgrade process? Does that mean you just deploy a new version/container of an application linked to the same underlying database (for example) when you need to run an upgrade? So if you had a fleet of ten containers running the same application in a load balanced config, I'm guessing you'd need to upgrade all of them at once (with downtime) rather than upgrading them one by one (because then the database would be inconsistent)? I'm assuming that since the containers are immutable the data is stored elsewhere.
- lukeschlather 6y ago
  In Kubernetes, deploying 10 containers takes a minute or two. I haven't worked with incredibly large deployments, but really deploying any amount of containers could easily take a minute or two if you have enough nodes. There is no downtime. Database inconsistency can cause problems but also any problems like that can be mitigated by doing a two-phase change to the database, and such changes are pretty rare and also devs instinctively avoid making those kinds of schema changes.
- tsimionescu 6y ago
  > So if you had a fleet of ten containers running the same application in a load balanced config, I'm guessing you'd need to upgrade all of them at once (with downtime) rather than upgrading them one by one (because then the database would be inconsistent)? That depends entirely on your application and the upgrade itself. Assuming we are discussing 10 different containers (e.g. 10 micro-services), k8s will normally update them in parallel but not atomically, it would be up to apication or deployment time logic to ensure they are updated as a single 'transaction'. If they are 10 copies of the same container, then k8s itself has tools for rolling upgrades where you can control the rollout. Also, depending on application logic, the upgrade could be done in such a way that there is no need to synchronize the services, they could work with the DB as is.
- specialp 6y ago
  You get the load balancing for free in K8s and rolling deploys. What you do is upgrade the deployment with a new docker image, and yes immutably it is replaced. In a case of an HTTP service, k8s will wait until a pod (container) responds healthy until it is put in the loop. Then it steps down old pods according to your rolling deploy metrics and replaces them. You can define what that is like having a max number of pods with a minimum number of pods up.
- mbushey 6y ago
  Helm is so bad it raises my blood pressure just hearing the name. Helm tries to apply the old way of doing things (like as you said Puppet) and makes it worse than ever. K8s yaml config is simple and elegant, don't try hiding it under templates. Kustomize is the proper way of working with K8s yaml. Helm fights against it.
reader_1000 6y ago
> So the same thing run locally is run in the cloud Who is preparing Dockerfiles? Developers and system administrators / security people do not generally prioritize same things. We do not use k8s for now (therefore I know very little about it), so this might not be relevant but how do you prevent shipping insecure containers?
- specialp 6y ago
  Generally developers. When running in a container most of the attack surface is the app itself, and if it is compromised the damage is supposed to be limited to the container. There have been container escape exploits in the past though. But with a container you treat the container as the thing that you run and give resources to and don't trust it just like if you were running an application. All of the principles of giving an application resources such as least privilege apply to containers too. But since you are not running multiple things or users in one space in a container, something such as an out of date vulnerable library can't be leveraged to gain root access to an entire host running other sensitive things too. In Kubernetes and docker in general one container should not be able to compromise another, or k8s. But there are other issues if an attacker can access a running container such as now having network access to other services like databases. But again these are all things that can be locked down and should be even if provisioning hosts running things.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

Ianvdl 6y ago

Thanks for the detailed response. It looks like I've still got a lot to learn - I've just lately been playing with LXC to get more familiarised with containers. I've previously looked at Helm apps and they seemed to be very similar to Puppet manifests. From what you said it seems like the approach is to have immutable containers for each application, set up via Dockerfiles, which somehow also simplifies the upgrade process? Does that mean you just deploy a new version/container of an application linked to the same underlying database (for example) when you need to run an upgrade? So if you had a fleet of ten containers running the same application in a load balanced config, I'm guessing you'd need to upgrade all of them at once (with downtime) rather than upgrading them one by one (because then the database would be inconsistent)? I'm assuming that since the containers are immutable the data is stored elsewhere.

lukeschlather 6y ago
In Kubernetes, deploying 10 containers takes a minute or two. I haven't worked with incredibly large deployments, but really deploying any amount of containers could easily take a minute or two if you have enough nodes. There is no downtime. Database inconsistency can cause problems but also any problems like that can be mitigated by doing a two-phase change to the database, and such changes are pretty rare and also devs instinctively avoid making those kinds of schema changes.
tsimionescu 6y ago
> So if you had a fleet of ten containers running the same application in a load balanced config, I'm guessing you'd need to upgrade all of them at once (with downtime) rather than upgrading them one by one (because then the database would be inconsistent)? That depends entirely on your application and the upgrade itself. Assuming we are discussing 10 different containers (e.g. 10 micro-services), k8s will normally update them in parallel but not atomically, it would be up to apication or deployment time logic to ensure they are updated as a single 'transaction'. If they are 10 copies of the same container, then k8s itself has tools for rolling upgrades where you can control the rollout. Also, depending on application logic, the upgrade could be done in such a way that there is no need to synchronize the services, they could work with the DB as is.
specialp 6y ago
You get the load balancing for free in K8s and rolling deploys. What you do is upgrade the deployment with a new docker image, and yes immutably it is replaced. In a case of an HTTP service, k8s will wait until a pod (container) responds healthy until it is put in the loop. Then it steps down old pods according to your rolling deploy metrics and replaces them. You can define what that is like having a max number of pods with a minimum number of pods up.
mbushey 6y ago
Helm is so bad it raises my blood pressure just hearing the name. Helm tries to apply the old way of doing things (like as you said Puppet) and makes it worse than ever. K8s yaml config is simple and elegant, don't try hiding it under templates. Kustomize is the proper way of working with K8s yaml. Helm fights against it.

reader_1000 6y ago

> So the same thing run locally is run in the cloud Who is preparing Dockerfiles? Developers and system administrators / security people do not generally prioritize same things. We do not use k8s for now (therefore I know very little about it), so this might not be relevant but how do you prevent shipping insecure containers?

specialp 6y ago
Generally developers. When running in a container most of the attack surface is the app itself, and if it is compromised the damage is supposed to be limited to the container. There have been container escape exploits in the past though. But with a container you treat the container as the thing that you run and give resources to and don't trust it just like if you were running an application. All of the principles of giving an application resources such as least privilege apply to containers too. But since you are not running multiple things or users in one space in a container, something such as an out of date vulnerable library can't be leveraged to gain root access to an entire host running other sensitive things too. In Kubernetes and docker in general one container should not be able to compromise another, or k8s. But there are other issues if an attacker can access a running container such as now having network access to other services like databases. But again these are all things that can be locked down and should be even if provisioning hosts running things.