8 ms·

We have our "ops" guys that monitors the environments, and a list of people for each system that is more or less always on call. Each service/job that is being

We have our "ops" guys that monitors the environments, and a list of people for each system that is more or less always on call. Each service/job that is being monitored has a procedure/description for how to respond to failures, and if nothing else works, the people on the list gets a call. You're not required to take the call, but you get a fairly large sum of money if you do, meaning people usually take the call despite not being required to. Because of laws here, you're required to have 11 hours of uninterrupted "free time" after leaving work (no laws on how long a work day is), so taking a call usually means you violate that, which in turn restarts the clock on your "free time", meaning you're entitled to "sleep in" on company time the next day. Doing so of course wreaks havoc on all planning, so very few people actually take the full 11 hours off, and instead just get in "late" around 9am. Edit: I should probably have explained that the calls happen on average once per system every 2-4 weeks, and the amount of people on call is probably limited to <5%-10% of the engineers.

antihero 6y ago
In what hellish sort of company is 9AM "late"?
- pishpash 6y ago
  MBA-run sweatshops.
- 8fingerlouie 6y ago
  Mandatory hours for most employees is "9am to 3pm". Opening hours for our customers is 10am to 4pm. Everybody is employed at 36 hours /week. Most people get in between 7am and 8am, and leave between 3pm and 4pm.
  - DocG 6y ago
    We have the same policy. Mandatory hours so there is common time where everyone is at work, but if you do your other hours after or before mandatory hours is up to you. Works really well. There is plenty of time when everyone is at work and can communicate but late and early people can set they schedule as they like. Plenty of tasks to do when you don't need other people.
    - datavirtue 6y ago
      There is zero need for mandatory hours. Adults know when they need to be available for their team.
  - ChuckNorris89 6y ago
    Just curious, in which country is 36hours/week standard? Or is it just your company?
    - 8fingerlouie 6y ago
      I think most of Europe has a 37 hour/week work schedule, and because "we're better" we have 36 hour/week. At least some of mainland Europe: Germany, France, Scandinavia, and IIRC the UK.
      - thebackup 6y ago
        I’m in Sweden, so Scandinavia. Every company I know has 40h work weeks. Lunch break is not included so if you start working at 8, take a 1 hour lunch break around 12, then you can log off at 17.
        8fingerlouie 6y ago
        The normal (office) working hours here are 37.5 hours per week, excluding lunch break, which is usually 30 minutes. That breaks down to 7.5 hours of work + 30 minutes of lunch break, meaning you get in at 8am and leave at 4pm.
      - darkwater 6y ago
        AFAIK only France has a 35hrs week (7h/day), most of the other countries has 40hrs week.
        eudajmonia 6y ago
        If we are counting actual working hours, it is also 7 hours a day in Poland. (8hr/day inclusive of 30 minutes lunch plus cumulative 30 minute break from staring at a screen).
      - ChuckNorris89 6y ago
        Ok, but where are you located? Where is "here" and who is "we're"? Europe is not a single country but every EU nations has different labor laws and working hour contracts.
- gambiting 6y ago
  I sometimes wonder where the hell most HNers work where 9am is not considered late start. At a warehouse I worked at the shift was 6am to 2pm. And it was great that way as you avoided most of the summer heat. The software company where I work now, 8am is standard, that way you're nicely done at 4pm and have the entire evening to yourself. My wife is also a programmer and usually starts at 7:30am because that's their first scrum.
  - p10jkle 6y ago
    I work in the UK with mostly US team. Start at 10:30am or so
    - cosmodisk 6y ago
      More important question is what time do you finish then?
      - deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
      - datavirtue 6y ago
        You know....2-3pm.
      - p10jkle 6y ago
        8-10pm
  - bengale 6y ago
    I don't think I've ever worked on a development team where you could book a meeting before 10:30am and expect the team to be there. I've always liked an early start for an early finish, I was one of the very few working early though in most places.
    - astura 6y ago
      Back in ancient times, my first software job was with an crusty old fashioned company. We were required to be in before 8am, many people arrived as early as 6am. Dress code was also very strict (but more lenient than it was historically) My second software job was with a company that was just as old but much more modern (not startup-ish). the boss required the team to be in before 9am, daily team meeting was at 9. My job now has flextime with core hours between either 10-3 or 10-2 (can't recall which) but very few people arrive after 9am. All other jobs I've worked have flextime with similar core hours, there was only one job that had a true "no rules" approach.
- ChuckNorris89 6y ago
  When I worked in Austria and Germany, most employees started between 6:00 and 8:00 AM at the latest. Although there was nothing against coming in after 9:00 AM due to flex-time, it would guarantee you'd miss all the morning coffee chit-chat with internal company gossip and by the time you'd leave work and head to the city, the shops would already be close to closing.
  - gambiting 6y ago
    Yeah that's the other thing. A lot of shops and agencies close at 5pm, so if your come in to work at 10am and work until 6pm? Everything is closed once you leave, good luck getting anything done after work.
    - znpy 6y ago
      If you come in at work at 10am you might have as well done that trip to the shop/agency before coming to work.
      - tharkun__ 6y ago
        Unfortunately not because most shops in Germany opened at 10am. It's much better nowadays in that AG least grocery stores are open to 10pm.
        znpy 6y ago
        then come in earlier, i guess?
        tharkun__ 6y ago
        Nowadays absolutely, at least for groceries. Then again I don't live there any longer :) Back when I was a kid? Not so much. Just looked it up. They were actually allowed to open from 7a.m. but at least where we lived, the regular shops in the city would only open at 10a.m. Shops were allowed to open until 6:30p.m. and not sure how long they actually did. We only had one car and lived too far from a large grocery store that would carry everything and at proper prices to walk/bike for larger volumes. So we only did them when my dad was home and could drive us (mostly - I do remember having to bike there from time to time). But usually it meant doing it on Saturdays. Shops were allowed to open until 2p.m. on Saturdays and closed on Sundays. We definitely made use of the "long Saturday" - one Saturday per month, they were allowed to open to 6p.m.
- taylodl 6y ago
  There are 10 kinds of developers in the world... Those who like to start their day mid morning and those who like to start their day early morning. To accommodate everyone a lot of companies use a standard "core time" of 10-2 where everyone needs to be in the office.
  - ricksunny 6y ago
    It's sad that different chronotypes aren't taken into account for work schedules. There are many an individual contributor, and manager, who naturally outperform outside of the usual 9-5 framework. Formally it's called Delayed Sleep Phase Syndrome (DSPS). Practically these are the people whose ancestors were guarding the tribe keeping it safe at night.
    - luftbbb 6y ago
      That's a really interesting take regarding the ancestral thing. It makes me wonder... In part, we are basically a genetic sum of our ancestors
- dd_roger 6y ago
  There's no company policy mandating me to start that early yet I start between 7am and 7:30am, by 8am the office is mostly full. The earlier you start the more daylight left to enjoy at the end of the day. 9am really sounds awfully late. People who start at 9 don't enjoy their morning any more than I do. They just wake up later. And it forces them to stay longer in the evening while I'm out taking advantage of the extra day light to do outdoor activities.
  - znpy 6y ago
    Indeed. I've seen some companies that clock the hours you're "in the building" and allow coming up early to leave early. What happens in practice is that some people will come in early, start working early, and leave early. Some other people will check-in early, enjoy the office-provided amenities in the empty office, and actually start working when the rest of the team gets in the office. Some smarter company just ask you to check-in before, say, 10 am and don't care when you leave (either early or late -- and don't require you to check-out explicitly by passing the badge) -- it's up to you and your boss/manager: as long as you meet the deadline, leave as soon or as late as you see fit.
  - Nannooskeeska 6y ago
    I'm with you 100%. I'm usually the first one in the office (well, pre-COVID anyway) and the first one to leave. Anecdotally, it's same since we started working from home - I usually try to start around 7-7:30am, and I generally don't start getting replies from coworkers until 8:30am or later. I see a lot of threads and comments about starting at 9-10am, and I don't understand it. I'm usually eating lunch at 11am and done with work by 3:30pm. It's so nice! The few times I've had to work until 5-6pm have been awful for me. I feel like I don't really have any time to really DO anything before bed.
  - jmdeon 6y ago
    >People who start at 9 don't enjoy their morning any more than I do. I am a morning person which means I really treasure my morning coffee and jazz music and reading time. I wake up at 7am and enjoy two sweet hours of a cold, dreamy morning before starting work fresh at 9am. I am a night person which means I really treasure my nightly herbal tea and hip hop music and comic book time. I take a hot shower at 10pm before wandering into bed sleepy at 10:45pm. None of this is rigid but I just feel like you are making super subjective arguments about a person's choice in time to work and sleep and live their life.
- throwaway7033 6y ago
  Our normal start time is before 9 am and many people start work much earlier; the company is on the Fortune 100 Best Places to work list.
eudajmonia 6y ago
It is similar in Poland. Here most colleagues can start between 6-9am and finish between 14-17. This is inclusive of a formal 30 minute lunch break and 10 minute breaks every 1 hour. (In practice most people just take 1 hour lunch instead). I enjoy this because I have much more time outside of the office to enjoy my life.

antihero 6y ago

In what hellish sort of company is 9AM "late"?

pishpash 6y ago
MBA-run sweatshops.
8fingerlouie 6y ago
Mandatory hours for most employees is "9am to 3pm". Opening hours for our customers is 10am to 4pm. Everybody is employed at 36 hours /week. Most people get in between 7am and 8am, and leave between 3pm and 4pm.
- DocG 6y ago
  We have the same policy. Mandatory hours so there is common time where everyone is at work, but if you do your other hours after or before mandatory hours is up to you. Works really well. There is plenty of time when everyone is at work and can communicate but late and early people can set they schedule as they like. Plenty of tasks to do when you don't need other people.
  - datavirtue 6y ago
    There is zero need for mandatory hours. Adults know when they need to be available for their team.
- ChuckNorris89 6y ago
  Just curious, in which country is 36hours/week standard? Or is it just your company?
  - 8fingerlouie 6y ago
    I think most of Europe has a 37 hour/week work schedule, and because "we're better" we have 36 hour/week. At least some of mainland Europe: Germany, France, Scandinavia, and IIRC the UK.
    - thebackup 6y ago
      I’m in Sweden, so Scandinavia. Every company I know has 40h work weeks. Lunch break is not included so if you start working at 8, take a 1 hour lunch break around 12, then you can log off at 17.
      - 8fingerlouie 6y ago
        The normal (office) working hours here are 37.5 hours per week, excluding lunch break, which is usually 30 minutes. That breaks down to 7.5 hours of work + 30 minutes of lunch break, meaning you get in at 8am and leave at 4pm.
    - darkwater 6y ago
      AFAIK only France has a 35hrs week (7h/day), most of the other countries has 40hrs week.
      - eudajmonia 6y ago
        If we are counting actual working hours, it is also 7 hours a day in Poland. (8hr/day inclusive of 30 minutes lunch plus cumulative 30 minute break from staring at a screen).
    - ChuckNorris89 6y ago
      Ok, but where are you located? Where is "here" and who is "we're"? Europe is not a single country but every EU nations has different labor laws and working hour contracts.
gambiting 6y ago
I sometimes wonder where the hell most HNers work where 9am is not considered late start. At a warehouse I worked at the shift was 6am to 2pm. And it was great that way as you avoided most of the summer heat. The software company where I work now, 8am is standard, that way you're nicely done at 4pm and have the entire evening to yourself. My wife is also a programmer and usually starts at 7:30am because that's their first scrum.
- p10jkle 6y ago
  I work in the UK with mostly US team. Start at 10:30am or so
  - cosmodisk 6y ago
    More important question is what time do you finish then?
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - datavirtue 6y ago
      You know....2-3pm.
    - p10jkle 6y ago
      8-10pm
- bengale 6y ago
  I don't think I've ever worked on a development team where you could book a meeting before 10:30am and expect the team to be there. I've always liked an early start for an early finish, I was one of the very few working early though in most places.
  - astura 6y ago
    Back in ancient times, my first software job was with an crusty old fashioned company. We were required to be in before 8am, many people arrived as early as 6am. Dress code was also very strict (but more lenient than it was historically) My second software job was with a company that was just as old but much more modern (not startup-ish). the boss required the team to be in before 9am, daily team meeting was at 9. My job now has flextime with core hours between either 10-3 or 10-2 (can't recall which) but very few people arrive after 9am. All other jobs I've worked have flextime with similar core hours, there was only one job that had a true "no rules" approach.
ChuckNorris89 6y ago
When I worked in Austria and Germany, most employees started between 6:00 and 8:00 AM at the latest. Although there was nothing against coming in after 9:00 AM due to flex-time, it would guarantee you'd miss all the morning coffee chit-chat with internal company gossip and by the time you'd leave work and head to the city, the shops would already be close to closing.
- gambiting 6y ago
  Yeah that's the other thing. A lot of shops and agencies close at 5pm, so if your come in to work at 10am and work until 6pm? Everything is closed once you leave, good luck getting anything done after work.
  - znpy 6y ago
    If you come in at work at 10am you might have as well done that trip to the shop/agency before coming to work.
    - tharkun__ 6y ago
      Unfortunately not because most shops in Germany opened at 10am. It's much better nowadays in that AG least grocery stores are open to 10pm.
      - znpy 6y ago
        then come in earlier, i guess?
        tharkun__ 6y ago
        Nowadays absolutely, at least for groceries. Then again I don't live there any longer :) Back when I was a kid? Not so much. Just looked it up. They were actually allowed to open from 7a.m. but at least where we lived, the regular shops in the city would only open at 10a.m. Shops were allowed to open until 6:30p.m. and not sure how long they actually did. We only had one car and lived too far from a large grocery store that would carry everything and at proper prices to walk/bike for larger volumes. So we only did them when my dad was home and could drive us (mostly - I do remember having to bike there from time to time). But usually it meant doing it on Saturdays. Shops were allowed to open until 2p.m. on Saturdays and closed on Sundays. We definitely made use of the "long Saturday" - one Saturday per month, they were allowed to open to 6p.m.
taylodl 6y ago
There are 10 kinds of developers in the world... Those who like to start their day mid morning and those who like to start their day early morning. To accommodate everyone a lot of companies use a standard "core time" of 10-2 where everyone needs to be in the office.
- ricksunny 6y ago
  It's sad that different chronotypes aren't taken into account for work schedules. There are many an individual contributor, and manager, who naturally outperform outside of the usual 9-5 framework. Formally it's called Delayed Sleep Phase Syndrome (DSPS). Practically these are the people whose ancestors were guarding the tribe keeping it safe at night.
  - luftbbb 6y ago
    That's a really interesting take regarding the ancestral thing. It makes me wonder... In part, we are basically a genetic sum of our ancestors
dd_roger 6y ago
There's no company policy mandating me to start that early yet I start between 7am and 7:30am, by 8am the office is mostly full. The earlier you start the more daylight left to enjoy at the end of the day. 9am really sounds awfully late. People who start at 9 don't enjoy their morning any more than I do. They just wake up later. And it forces them to stay longer in the evening while I'm out taking advantage of the extra day light to do outdoor activities.
- znpy 6y ago
  Indeed. I've seen some companies that clock the hours you're "in the building" and allow coming up early to leave early. What happens in practice is that some people will come in early, start working early, and leave early. Some other people will check-in early, enjoy the office-provided amenities in the empty office, and actually start working when the rest of the team gets in the office. Some smarter company just ask you to check-in before, say, 10 am and don't care when you leave (either early or late -- and don't require you to check-out explicitly by passing the badge) -- it's up to you and your boss/manager: as long as you meet the deadline, leave as soon or as late as you see fit.
- Nannooskeeska 6y ago
  I'm with you 100%. I'm usually the first one in the office (well, pre-COVID anyway) and the first one to leave. Anecdotally, it's same since we started working from home - I usually try to start around 7-7:30am, and I generally don't start getting replies from coworkers until 8:30am or later. I see a lot of threads and comments about starting at 9-10am, and I don't understand it. I'm usually eating lunch at 11am and done with work by 3:30pm. It's so nice! The few times I've had to work until 5-6pm have been awful for me. I feel like I don't really have any time to really DO anything before bed.
- jmdeon 6y ago
  >People who start at 9 don't enjoy their morning any more than I do. I am a morning person which means I really treasure my morning coffee and jazz music and reading time. I wake up at 7am and enjoy two sweet hours of a cold, dreamy morning before starting work fresh at 9am. I am a night person which means I really treasure my nightly herbal tea and hip hop music and comic book time. I take a hot shower at 10pm before wandering into bed sleepy at 10:45pm. None of this is rigid but I just feel like you are making super subjective arguments about a person's choice in time to work and sleep and live their life.
throwaway7033 6y ago
Our normal start time is before 9 am and many people start work much earlier; the company is on the Fortune 100 Best Places to work list.

eudajmonia 6y ago

It is similar in Poland. Here most colleagues can start between 6-9am and finish between 14-17. This is inclusive of a formal 30 minute lunch break and 10 minute breaks every 1 hour. (In practice most people just take 1 hour lunch instead). I enjoy this because I have much more time outside of the office to enjoy my life.