5 ms·

While on the subject of time, could you Americans pretty please stop believing that the week starts on Sunday? It's just as wrong as your date format.

yokaze 6y ago
China and Japan have Sunday as the first day since the 4th and 8th century respectively: http://chartsbin.com/view/41671 http://chartsbin.com/view/41671. So presumably, you come from a Europe-centric view: http://chartsbin.com/view/41671 http://chartsbin.com/view/41671
- FooBarWidget 6y ago
  China does? I'm Chinese and I'm pretty sure Chinese consider Monday to be the start.
  - yokaze 6y ago
    Ah, sorry. Then I am misinformed. The locale "zh_CN" does give me Sunday as the first, which seems then misaligned with actual practice.
  - Turing_Machine 6y ago
    Not according to: https://unicode-org.github.io/cldr-staging/charts/38/supplemental/territory_information.html https://unicode-org.github.io/cldr-staging/charts/38/supplem... Note that common usage and the official definition may well differ. Most Americans probably consider Monday the "first day of the week" as it is the first day in a standard work week. But officially, Sunday is the first day of the week.
    - rswail 6y ago
      Which is weird, because "god rested on the seventh day" and the Christian religion believes that to be Sunday, so it is the last day of the week. Why does the US think that the week starts on Sunday?
      - InfiniteRand 6y ago
        No, the 7th day from Genesis is Saturday, and Saturday was the proper day for the Sabbath before Jesus. Sunday became the holy day of rest in recognition of Jesus's resurrection on Easter. That's at least the standard Christian interpretation that I've heard. I've read some historians state that Christians started using Sunday as their Sabbath day in order to distinguish themselves more sharply from the Jews. There are some Christian denominations which use Saturday as their Sabbath day, such as Seventh-day Adventist Church, so using Saturday as the holy day is a minority practice among Christians but it's a significant minority.
- gherkinnn 6y ago
  The problem is that the US directs how much of my software is built.
  - bartvk 6y ago
    Don't you just use localization features of your API for this? I'm an iOS developer, and whenever I print dates, I just ask the system to print it, according to the system its locale.
    - m_eiman 6y ago
      Many developers do not. Especially month views tend to be hardcoded.
- em-bee 6y ago
  historically europe also started the week on sunday as per christian tradition. i too grew up with the idea that the week starts on sunday. this change to starting the week on monday is therefore a recent development. same in china btw. days in china are numbered. monday is number 1, and sunday is 7. so while people may have the idea that the week starts on sunday (i don't know) the day numbering suggests that it actually starts on monday. same goes for europe. monday by law and sunday by tradition
  - yokaze 6y ago
    > sunday is 7 My understanding is that all days except Sunday "week-day" (星期日) are numbered. Monday is (星期一) "week-one". So there is still some room for ambiguity left if you allow for counting from 0.
- InfiniteRand 6y ago
  Interesting context for this on Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_calendar#Week https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_calendar#Week
globular-toast 6y ago
Any choice is arbitrary. What is a week to the solar system? The only things that are real are days and years.
- augustk 6y ago
  International Fixed Calendar is an alternative. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Fixed_Calendar https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Fixed_Calendar
- gherkinnn 6y ago
  What is a day in the solar system? What is anything anywhere anyway? That’s not the point. The point is that in the US people typically work Mon-Fri and loaf around Sat-Sun (weekend) and yet the week starts in Sundays. It’s infuriating.
  - jpetso 6y ago
    Well, the Bible says that you shall rest on the seventh day of the week, which in certain religions is known as Sabbath or Shabbat or whatever, which as we all know maps to Saturday. Without having really done the research, I've been ascribing the US calendar idiosyncrasy to religious influences... and really, that's what Europe does as well, they just picked a different mapping. So now when we rest, both the Jews and the Christians get their favorite day off and yay, we have a two-day weekend.
    - gherkinnn 6y ago
      If your weekend is Fri-Sat then by all means start your week on Sunday.
  - Turing_Machine 6y ago
    A day corresponds to an actual rotation of the Earth, i.e., a day-night cycle. A year corresponds to an actual revolution of the Earth about the Sun, i.e., seasons. A week corresponds to...nothing. Four of them are a (very) rough estimate of the phases of the moon, but that's not something that really matters to anyone other than sailors nowadays.
Turing_Machine 6y ago
"Americans" didn't invent that idea. The Hebrews did -- a long, long, long time ago. Sunday is the first day of the week in almost all of the Americas, Japan, South Korea, and China. Monday is the first day in Europe and some (relatively) recent European colonies (e.g., India). The numbering of the days of the week is purely arbitrary. It makes no sense to claim that a particular ordering is "wrong". If one goes by the sheer number of people who use a particular numbering, Americas + China comfortably exceeds Europe + recent European colonies.
euroderf 6y ago
Starting weeks on Sundays has the ill effect of centering every calendar page on the work week, with the work-free days relegated - nay, shoved out - to the margins. The cynic in me says this is by design. Perhaps a capitalist plot to denigrate time away from work? It would be psychologically satisfying to have every calendar week begin on a Monday so that every work week ends with a prominent, uninterrupted two-day block of work-free time.
- JdeBP 6y ago
  It is a capitalist plot with a time machine, given that the convention goes back for millennia.

yokaze 6y ago

China and Japan have Sunday as the first day since the 4th and 8th century respectively: http://chartsbin.com/view/41671 http://chartsbin.com/view/41671. So presumably, you come from a Europe-centric view: http://chartsbin.com/view/41671 http://chartsbin.com/view/41671

FooBarWidget 6y ago
China does? I'm Chinese and I'm pretty sure Chinese consider Monday to be the start.
- yokaze 6y ago
  Ah, sorry. Then I am misinformed. The locale "zh_CN" does give me Sunday as the first, which seems then misaligned with actual practice.
- Turing_Machine 6y ago
  Not according to: https://unicode-org.github.io/cldr-staging/charts/38/supplemental/territory_information.html https://unicode-org.github.io/cldr-staging/charts/38/supplem... Note that common usage and the official definition may well differ. Most Americans probably consider Monday the "first day of the week" as it is the first day in a standard work week. But officially, Sunday is the first day of the week.
  - rswail 6y ago
    Which is weird, because "god rested on the seventh day" and the Christian religion believes that to be Sunday, so it is the last day of the week. Why does the US think that the week starts on Sunday?
    - InfiniteRand 6y ago
      No, the 7th day from Genesis is Saturday, and Saturday was the proper day for the Sabbath before Jesus. Sunday became the holy day of rest in recognition of Jesus's resurrection on Easter. That's at least the standard Christian interpretation that I've heard. I've read some historians state that Christians started using Sunday as their Sabbath day in order to distinguish themselves more sharply from the Jews. There are some Christian denominations which use Saturday as their Sabbath day, such as Seventh-day Adventist Church, so using Saturday as the holy day is a minority practice among Christians but it's a significant minority.
gherkinnn 6y ago
The problem is that the US directs how much of my software is built.
- bartvk 6y ago
  Don't you just use localization features of your API for this? I'm an iOS developer, and whenever I print dates, I just ask the system to print it, according to the system its locale.
  - m_eiman 6y ago
    Many developers do not. Especially month views tend to be hardcoded.
em-bee 6y ago
historically europe also started the week on sunday as per christian tradition. i too grew up with the idea that the week starts on sunday. this change to starting the week on monday is therefore a recent development. same in china btw. days in china are numbered. monday is number 1, and sunday is 7. so while people may have the idea that the week starts on sunday (i don't know) the day numbering suggests that it actually starts on monday. same goes for europe. monday by law and sunday by tradition
- yokaze 6y ago
  > sunday is 7 My understanding is that all days except Sunday "week-day" (星期日) are numbered. Monday is (星期一) "week-one". So there is still some room for ambiguity left if you allow for counting from 0.
InfiniteRand 6y ago
Interesting context for this on Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_calendar#Week https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_calendar#Week

globular-toast 6y ago

Any choice is arbitrary. What is a week to the solar system? The only things that are real are days and years.

augustk 6y ago
International Fixed Calendar is an alternative. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Fixed_Calendar https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Fixed_Calendar
gherkinnn 6y ago
What is a day in the solar system? What is anything anywhere anyway? That’s not the point. The point is that in the US people typically work Mon-Fri and loaf around Sat-Sun (weekend) and yet the week starts in Sundays. It’s infuriating.
- jpetso 6y ago
  Well, the Bible says that you shall rest on the seventh day of the week, which in certain religions is known as Sabbath or Shabbat or whatever, which as we all know maps to Saturday. Without having really done the research, I've been ascribing the US calendar idiosyncrasy to religious influences... and really, that's what Europe does as well, they just picked a different mapping. So now when we rest, both the Jews and the Christians get their favorite day off and yay, we have a two-day weekend.
  - gherkinnn 6y ago
    If your weekend is Fri-Sat then by all means start your week on Sunday.
- Turing_Machine 6y ago
  A day corresponds to an actual rotation of the Earth, i.e., a day-night cycle. A year corresponds to an actual revolution of the Earth about the Sun, i.e., seasons. A week corresponds to...nothing. Four of them are a (very) rough estimate of the phases of the moon, but that's not something that really matters to anyone other than sailors nowadays.

Turing_Machine 6y ago

"Americans" didn't invent that idea. The Hebrews did -- a long, long, long time ago. Sunday is the first day of the week in almost all of the Americas, Japan, South Korea, and China. Monday is the first day in Europe and some (relatively) recent European colonies (e.g., India). The numbering of the days of the week is purely arbitrary. It makes no sense to claim that a particular ordering is "wrong". If one goes by the sheer number of people who use a particular numbering, Americas + China comfortably exceeds Europe + recent European colonies.

euroderf 6y ago

Starting weeks on Sundays has the ill effect of centering every calendar page on the work week, with the work-free days relegated - nay, shoved out - to the margins. The cynic in me says this is by design. Perhaps a capitalist plot to denigrate time away from work? It would be psychologically satisfying to have every calendar week begin on a Monday so that every work week ends with a prominent, uninterrupted two-day block of work-free time.

JdeBP 6y ago
It is a capitalist plot with a time machine, given that the convention goes back for millennia.