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Having actually worked a union job once, I'll say this: Unions suck. Bezos should fire them all and hire people that want to work harder to make more money. An

by htnsao 6y ago

Having actually worked a union job once, I'll say this: Unions suck. Bezos should fire them all and hire people that want to work harder to make more money. And try to replace each whiner with a robot.

okamiueru 6y ago
Care to explain or elaborate? I'm in utter confusion at every hacker news discussion that touches on unions. I live in a country that is heavily unionised. Its almost unheard of to not be in one. And, y the benefits are so prevalent, that I'm just confused reading the things I read on hacker news. It's just, weird. I have my suspicious, but I'd have to keep those to myself due to the guidelines here.
- colejohnson66 6y ago
  Key word in your comment: “different country.” Unions in the US tend to have an image of bureaucracy and not actually helping. For example, I worked at a union grocery store job a few years back and the union did jack squat for quite a lot of us. No benefits, minimum wage (well, 10¢ or so over), etc. My experience is obviously not representative of unions as a whole, but experiences such as these do taint one’s view of them in a bad way. Especially if they’re your first experience.
  - okamiueru 6y ago
    Surely that is the fault of that union, and not the concept of it in of itself? There seems to be such a heavy effort put to make unions look bad, that I don't doubt for a second that it isn't effective. But the basic idea of it is that the employees have a lot more negotiation power collectively than alone. The whole goal is to have a fair compensation for work. Why would anyone work for a wage that isn't livable? It's more a hypothetical mind you, but with a collective bargaining power, no one would. I don't think there is a minimum wage in my country, but I'm pretty sure store clerks make enough to live a decent life.
    - colejohnson66 6y ago
      > Surely that is the fault of that union, and not the concept of it in of itself? There seems to be such a heavy effort put to make unions look bad, that I don't doubt for a second that it isn't effective. For sure: it’s the union, not the concept. But humans are a finicky bunch and let single experiences affect our view of the bigger thing. Such as when an employee at a grocery store is rude and you blame the whole company. Maybe you and I don’t do that, but some do. When a union takes ~5-10% of your paycheck but then provides nothing of value (that you see), you aren’t going to go “well maybe there’s something behind the scenes?” If you already had a bad view of unions (possible due to the vast majority of the GOP), and then your union is bad, your negative opinion is going to be reinforced with “they’re doing nothing! Unions as a whole suck!”
- htnsao 6y ago
  >Care to explain or elaborate? Ok. I once took a massive pay cut to go from piece-work to union hourly wages. The days were longer and overall crew production was around 1/3 of what it should be. Work availability was based on seniority within the union instead of performance. Unions are all about receiving more for doing less, and are very detrimental to businesses. In my experience union workers are a lazy bunch that talk more then they work, killing time is their main job description. And union administrators are just parasites. It's all political. I've seen teachers unwillingly have to go on strike for months then be stuck with a worse deal afterwards. Anyways I think if people aren't happy with their job they should go work somewhere else or better yet start their own business.
  - gowld 6y ago
    Replacing "union" with "management" yields a substantially equivalent argument.
    - htnsao 6y ago
      Ha. True. I could be talking about myself now.
- eldavido 6y ago
  Data point: wages are higher in the US than most other countries, even for equivalent jobs. I routinely see development jobs in Europe offering 40-50k Euros that would pay double that in dollars in the US, and the US also tends to have lower taxes. How does your country's wages compare? I do think the US works more hours (look at OECD data for this) but I think US companies are managed better in general, and the general non-unionization of the US workforce (only about 15% overall, with the majority working for government) is a big part of why pay is higher.
  - selestify 6y ago
    Nah. Even within the US, union members are better paid than non-union members.
  - okamiueru 6y ago
    What unusual metrics and arguments. What do you mean wages are higher? I took a quick look, and there are indeed laws for minimum wage, but depends on fields, and various criteria (education level, etc), but generally speaking at around 25 usd. Taxes is a confusing point, because, paying taxes can (should?) distribute wealth. We are after all talking about minimum wage here... General high taxes is something that benefits this group of people the most. You pay comparatively less of income as tax, and you get to spend it on other things than health care, or education (as its mostly handled by tax money).
whoknew1122 6y ago
I work at Amazon. My father-in-law is a union pipefitter. We both make 100k a year. Except he has a pension and I have to pay into a 401k. Further, the culture at Amazon is such working harder would require sacrificing physical and mental health. Especially on the retail and warehouse side.
- htnsao 6y ago
  Bueno. Thanks for sharing your perspective. You seem to be making relatively decent money there. If you want more, make some moves. I should have been more clear in that while I'm against unions I'm all for paying workers twice the going rate. And firing them if they don't perform. And my comments about working harder for more money was about pay based on performance. ie produce more, make more. Go hard or go home. Not sure how that can fit into retail and warehouse there exactly but it probably could be done. Pensions, 401K. Not my cup of tea. I prefer to watch trees grow. And have you seen how easy it is to launch a product these days? Well, actually nothing's easy.

by htnsao 6y ago

okamiueru 6y ago

Care to explain or elaborate? I'm in utter confusion at every hacker news discussion that touches on unions. I live in a country that is heavily unionised. Its almost unheard of to not be in one. And, y the benefits are so prevalent, that I'm just confused reading the things I read on hacker news. It's just, weird. I have my suspicious, but I'd have to keep those to myself due to the guidelines here.

colejohnson66 6y ago
Key word in your comment: “different country.” Unions in the US tend to have an image of bureaucracy and not actually helping. For example, I worked at a union grocery store job a few years back and the union did jack squat for quite a lot of us. No benefits, minimum wage (well, 10¢ or so over), etc. My experience is obviously not representative of unions as a whole, but experiences such as these do taint one’s view of them in a bad way. Especially if they’re your first experience.
- okamiueru 6y ago
  Surely that is the fault of that union, and not the concept of it in of itself? There seems to be such a heavy effort put to make unions look bad, that I don't doubt for a second that it isn't effective. But the basic idea of it is that the employees have a lot more negotiation power collectively than alone. The whole goal is to have a fair compensation for work. Why would anyone work for a wage that isn't livable? It's more a hypothetical mind you, but with a collective bargaining power, no one would. I don't think there is a minimum wage in my country, but I'm pretty sure store clerks make enough to live a decent life.
  - colejohnson66 6y ago
    > Surely that is the fault of that union, and not the concept of it in of itself? There seems to be such a heavy effort put to make unions look bad, that I don't doubt for a second that it isn't effective. For sure: it’s the union, not the concept. But humans are a finicky bunch and let single experiences affect our view of the bigger thing. Such as when an employee at a grocery store is rude and you blame the whole company. Maybe you and I don’t do that, but some do. When a union takes ~5-10% of your paycheck but then provides nothing of value (that you see), you aren’t going to go “well maybe there’s something behind the scenes?” If you already had a bad view of unions (possible due to the vast majority of the GOP), and then your union is bad, your negative opinion is going to be reinforced with “they’re doing nothing! Unions as a whole suck!”
htnsao 6y ago
>Care to explain or elaborate? Ok. I once took a massive pay cut to go from piece-work to union hourly wages. The days were longer and overall crew production was around 1/3 of what it should be. Work availability was based on seniority within the union instead of performance. Unions are all about receiving more for doing less, and are very detrimental to businesses. In my experience union workers are a lazy bunch that talk more then they work, killing time is their main job description. And union administrators are just parasites. It's all political. I've seen teachers unwillingly have to go on strike for months then be stuck with a worse deal afterwards. Anyways I think if people aren't happy with their job they should go work somewhere else or better yet start their own business.
- gowld 6y ago
  Replacing "union" with "management" yields a substantially equivalent argument.
  - htnsao 6y ago
    Ha. True. I could be talking about myself now.
eldavido 6y ago
Data point: wages are higher in the US than most other countries, even for equivalent jobs. I routinely see development jobs in Europe offering 40-50k Euros that would pay double that in dollars in the US, and the US also tends to have lower taxes. How does your country's wages compare? I do think the US works more hours (look at OECD data for this) but I think US companies are managed better in general, and the general non-unionization of the US workforce (only about 15% overall, with the majority working for government) is a big part of why pay is higher.
- selestify 6y ago
  Nah. Even within the US, union members are better paid than non-union members.
- okamiueru 6y ago
  What unusual metrics and arguments. What do you mean wages are higher? I took a quick look, and there are indeed laws for minimum wage, but depends on fields, and various criteria (education level, etc), but generally speaking at around 25 usd. Taxes is a confusing point, because, paying taxes can (should?) distribute wealth. We are after all talking about minimum wage here... General high taxes is something that benefits this group of people the most. You pay comparatively less of income as tax, and you get to spend it on other things than health care, or education (as its mostly handled by tax money).

whoknew1122 6y ago

I work at Amazon. My father-in-law is a union pipefitter. We both make 100k a year. Except he has a pension and I have to pay into a 401k. Further, the culture at Amazon is such working harder would require sacrificing physical and mental health. Especially on the retail and warehouse side.

htnsao 6y ago
Bueno. Thanks for sharing your perspective. You seem to be making relatively decent money there. If you want more, make some moves. I should have been more clear in that while I'm against unions I'm all for paying workers twice the going rate. And firing them if they don't perform. And my comments about working harder for more money was about pay based on performance. ie produce more, make more. Go hard or go home. Not sure how that can fit into retail and warehouse there exactly but it probably could be done. Pensions, 401K. Not my cup of tea. I prefer to watch trees grow. And have you seen how easy it is to launch a product these days? Well, actually nothing's easy.