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Well, I'm glad I could provide you some entertainment! > Personally, I think the burden of proof goes the other way. Well, it's not exactly a brand new experi

by bhupy 6y ago

Well, I'm glad I could provide you some entertainment! > Personally, I think the burden of proof goes the other way. Well, it's not exactly a brand new experiment, we already know what happens when you have a deflationary store of value alongside fiat currency, and we see that in Gold today. The concept isn't strictly unheard of. I think what's debatable is if the last 70 or so years of gold alongside fiat currencies is sufficient enough information for us to conclude that having things like gold and gold-like assets won't be disastrous to a financial system. > so far mainly useful for scams, ransomware, market manipulation, money laundering, and other kinds of light financial crime. (Plus speculation of course, but there were plenty of options for that before.) This is true of paper cash, too. There’s a common saying that if cash were invented today, it would be illegal, since it’s hard for the government to track and they wouldn’t like it, which I find amusingly true. The preponderance of bad people using a tool doesn't immediately render the tool itself bad. Bitcoin (and crypto) has been around for only 12 years now. Is it perfect? No absolutely not, there are a ton of kinks that need to be ironed out. Costs and speed need to be improved (probably through L2 protocols), we need to find ways to reduce energy consumption and use green energy as much as possible, we need to make sure that the money flowing into schemes like Tether is legitimate. I think the proponents all know that there is still lots of work to be done, and it feels like the detractors think that the adherents don't know that. What's especially entertaining to me, personally, is that I have no horse in this race; I don't work with or for any crypto institutions and I hold a tiny amount of play BTC/ETH just for curiosity's sake. I am neither a proponent nor a detractor. But the sheer amount of misinformation and strawmen arguments leveled against BTC has has pushed me to seek out the strongest possible arguments in favor of BTC, so thanks for that.

wpietri 6y ago
If Bitcoin is the same as gold, then we don't really need Bitcoin. But its point is being different. So you can't handwave away concerns based on it being exactly the same. I'm not saying Bitcoin isn't perfect; nothing is. My point is that Bitcoin has not demonstrated any significant value certainly not in excess of its costs and harms, and it's had plenty of time. Bitcoin and Android are basically the same age. Bitcoin is still at best a niche, probably a shrinking one. Android is coming up on 3 billion users worldwide, providing clear daily value.
- bhupy 6y ago
  > If Bitcoin is the same as gold, then we don't really need Bitcoin This argument doesn't make much sense. It's like saying if rubies are the same as emeralds, then we don't need rubies. Also, there can be multiple types of assets! Nobody wants to put all of their eggs in one basket. Bitcoin can coexist with gold. Bitcoin is also arguably superior to gold in that it's MUCH easier to pay for bread with a little bit of bitcoin, and MUCH harder to do the same with gold (who's going to chop up the gold bar?). In fact, if I were to use the same zero-sum argument as above, one could even say: "if Bitcoin is the same as gold, then we don't really need gold" (again that's also a bad argument, both can coexist and gold is sometimes better) > But its point is being different. So you can't handwave away concerns based on it being exactly the same. You're right that gold and Bitcoin are different, but things can be different while still being "the same" at a fundamental/conceptual level. Cars and bicycles are different, but they still serve the same underlying need: transportation. > My point is that Bitcoin has not demonstrated any significant value certainly not in excess of its costs and harms, and it's had plenty of time. Bitcoin and Android are basically the same age. Android is coming up on 3 billion users worldwide, providing clear daily value. I think this is a really strong argument that Android is more valuable than Bitcoin (in some subjective sense), I agree with you that Android is extremely valuable and "good". That said, this is not a particularly strong argument that Bitcoin is absolutely valueless. The value of Bitcoin is in the eyes of the "behodler", and some people seem to value it a lot. People are using it as a safe haven from their country's poor monetary policies (happening in Nigeria and Argentina right now, has happened in Venezuela and Zimbabwe before). That's clearly non-zero value. And if your argument is that value is strictly a function of its utility, well then I'd like to introduce you to the economic concept of the Diamond-water paradox (https://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/032615/how-can-marginal-utility-explain-diamondwater-paradox.asp https://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/032615/how-can-marg...) which is the fundamental underpinning for the Subjective Theory of Value. > Bitcoin is still at best a niche, probably a shrinking one. We agree that Bitcoin is currently a niche, but I'm not sure that I agree that it's a shrinking niche. As of the last month, major institutional investors like BNY Mellon and BlackRock have started to include it in their asset mixtures. Major companies like Square and Tesla have started to hold some of their cash reserves in Bitcoin. Canada just approved North America's first Bitcoin ETF, trading on the TSX. I'm not sure how we can conclude that Bitcoin is shrinking with all of this institutional activity.

by bhupy 6y ago

wpietri 6y ago

If Bitcoin is the same as gold, then we don't really need Bitcoin. But its point is being different. So you can't handwave away concerns based on it being exactly the same. I'm not saying Bitcoin isn't perfect; nothing is. My point is that Bitcoin has not demonstrated any significant value certainly not in excess of its costs and harms, and it's had plenty of time. Bitcoin and Android are basically the same age. Bitcoin is still at best a niche, probably a shrinking one. Android is coming up on 3 billion users worldwide, providing clear daily value.

bhupy 6y ago
> If Bitcoin is the same as gold, then we don't really need Bitcoin This argument doesn't make much sense. It's like saying if rubies are the same as emeralds, then we don't need rubies. Also, there can be multiple types of assets! Nobody wants to put all of their eggs in one basket. Bitcoin can coexist with gold. Bitcoin is also arguably superior to gold in that it's MUCH easier to pay for bread with a little bit of bitcoin, and MUCH harder to do the same with gold (who's going to chop up the gold bar?). In fact, if I were to use the same zero-sum argument as above, one could even say: "if Bitcoin is the same as gold, then we don't really need gold" (again that's also a bad argument, both can coexist and gold is sometimes better) > But its point is being different. So you can't handwave away concerns based on it being exactly the same. You're right that gold and Bitcoin are different, but things can be different while still being "the same" at a fundamental/conceptual level. Cars and bicycles are different, but they still serve the same underlying need: transportation. > My point is that Bitcoin has not demonstrated any significant value certainly not in excess of its costs and harms, and it's had plenty of time. Bitcoin and Android are basically the same age. Android is coming up on 3 billion users worldwide, providing clear daily value. I think this is a really strong argument that Android is more valuable than Bitcoin (in some subjective sense), I agree with you that Android is extremely valuable and "good". That said, this is not a particularly strong argument that Bitcoin is absolutely valueless. The value of Bitcoin is in the eyes of the "behodler", and some people seem to value it a lot. People are using it as a safe haven from their country's poor monetary policies (happening in Nigeria and Argentina right now, has happened in Venezuela and Zimbabwe before). That's clearly non-zero value. And if your argument is that value is strictly a function of its utility, well then I'd like to introduce you to the economic concept of the Diamond-water paradox (https://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/032615/how-can-marginal-utility-explain-diamondwater-paradox.asp https://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/032615/how-can-marg...) which is the fundamental underpinning for the Subjective Theory of Value. > Bitcoin is still at best a niche, probably a shrinking one. We agree that Bitcoin is currently a niche, but I'm not sure that I agree that it's a shrinking niche. As of the last month, major institutional investors like BNY Mellon and BlackRock have started to include it in their asset mixtures. Major companies like Square and Tesla have started to hold some of their cash reserves in Bitcoin. Canada just approved North America's first Bitcoin ETF, trading on the TSX. I'm not sure how we can conclude that Bitcoin is shrinking with all of this institutional activity.