4 ms·

Key travel isn't everything. The layout is important as well. This is the best layout humanity ever invented: https://www.notebookcheck.net/fileadmin/_processe

Key travel isn't everything. The layout is important as well. This is the best layout humanity ever invented: https://www.notebookcheck.net/fileadmin/_processed_/c/0/csm_MG_1549_69ed205878.jpg https://www.notebookcheck.net/fileadmin/_processed_/c/0/csm_... Classic arrow keys, separate volume buttons, separate back/forward/pageup/pagedown, F1-F12 as the primary functions, …

layer8 6y ago
Full-sized (full-height!) F keys, full-sized inverted-T arrow keys, dedicated Ins/Del/Home/End/PgUp/PgDown keys, and the Menu key (as on the Thinkpad) would be ideal.
wishinghand 6y ago
At this point I'd prefer few keys, just 18 per side for my fingers and a row of 4-6 for each of my thumbs. I'd handle numbers, function keys, volume, and whatever else you mentioned with layers.
- layer8 6y ago
  Those keys already have their own layers in a lot of software. Having to press yet another additional modifier key destroys usability and muscle memory.
  - wishinghand 6y ago
    > Having to press yet another additional modifier key destroys usability and muscle memory I'm far more comfortable moving my fingers and thumbs as little as possible rather than having to stretch far and wide for those extra function keys.
    - layer8 6y ago
      For me it’s the opposite: I get RSI from having to stretch my hands to press 2-3 modifiers simultaneously, whereas moving my hands a bit is no problem.
      - rgoulter 6y ago
        If there are different preferences for arrangement of keyboard layout, then my vote goes to: it would be amazing if there were a laptop where such things could be customized. Then the people who want niche 40% or 36-key layouts can go with that, and those who prefer more keys can go with that. IMO, the row-stagger is an unergonomic, archaic skeuomorphism. This is also a niche opinion. Unfortunately, I'm sure there are practical reasons why "modular keyboard" can't happen (not enough market interest, strength of the laptop hull suffers if the keyboard is a separate module, laptop couldn't be as thin, etc.).
      - wishinghand 6y ago
        Right, which is why I wanted the non-stretching version. The modifiers are quite reachable with about 50-52 keys.
com2kid 6y ago
See, I disagree, I use home/end/pageup/pagedown all the time, and having them separate in an awkward spot is annoying. I prefer having them overlaid on the arrow keys, with fn to access them. IMHO that is the one area laptop keyboards can superior to full size keyboards.
- Liskni_si 6y ago
  We probably need laptops with configurable keyboard layouts then, so that you can choose a variant when purchasing it and then replace it with different one if you find out you don't like it. (And then, let's not forget that keyboard layouts are somewhat configurable in software. It's easy to bind pageup to mod-uparrow and pagedown to mod-downarrow. But it can't be done if the physical keys are missing, so physical keyboard layouts with more keys are preferable to those with less keys. Unfortunately fn-combos are usually hardwired in the Embedded Controller and can't be changed easily in software.)
  - fsflover 6y ago
    > We probably need laptops with configurable keyboard layouts then https://puri.sm/posts/librem-14-adding-librem-ec-freed-embedded-controller-firmware/ https://puri.sm/posts/librem-14-adding-librem-ec-freed-embed...
    - Liskni_si 6y ago
      By configurable, I mainly meant the physical layout of keys, configurable at purchase time. So that one can get a laptop with a trendy 6-row chiclet, or a proper 7-row classic ThinkPad keyboard. But yeah, being able to override the key mapping in EC is an important feature as well, and I'm glad someone's doing it! I really hope for the future where all these pieces come together: a laptop with a good physical keyboard (configurable/swappable, so that everyone can get their meaning of "good"), with configurable EC, replaceable components, etc. That would be a dream.
- jpetso 6y ago
  This is what makes newer ThinkPad keyboard layouts great at least in terms of arrow keys - the useless icon keys from the GP's posted image are now PgUp/PgDown, meaning you can access at least two out of the four without annoying two-handed operation. Home/End can still be bound to arrow keys plus modifier, but even there it's nice to have a dedicated key available. Basically, full-size arrow keys are what really makes the difference, and at that point you could get the best of both worlds anyway. (Let's not talk about other recent/misguided ThinkPad keyboard developments though.)
croh 6y ago
haha fn on extreme left. are you kidding?
- Liskni_si 6y ago
  Fn position is obviously configurable. I have ctrl/fn swapped, but plenty of people don't, and that's fine. (And then plently of people have ctrl on capslock, which is also fine. I couldn't get used to it.)
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
nine_k 6y ago
I'm a big fan of Thinkpad keyboards, too. But am I the only person considering a split ergonomic layout with thumb clusters, to give your pinkies some rest? The touchpad could live between the keyboard halves, and never be touched by mistake. I wonder if that could be an option.
rplnt 6y ago
While I agree with you one the F keys and home block, I also understand that's something that people might not prefer. What I don't understand are the arrows. I've been using MB Pro daily for over 3 years now and I still regularly miss up/down arrows. I would never buy a device that merges them into size of one key as the MB Pro does, as well as this one.

layer8 6y ago

Full-sized (full-height!) F keys, full-sized inverted-T arrow keys, dedicated Ins/Del/Home/End/PgUp/PgDown keys, and the Menu key (as on the Thinkpad) would be ideal.

wishinghand 6y ago

At this point I'd prefer few keys, just 18 per side for my fingers and a row of 4-6 for each of my thumbs. I'd handle numbers, function keys, volume, and whatever else you mentioned with layers.

layer8 6y ago
Those keys already have their own layers in a lot of software. Having to press yet another additional modifier key destroys usability and muscle memory.
- wishinghand 6y ago
  > Having to press yet another additional modifier key destroys usability and muscle memory I'm far more comfortable moving my fingers and thumbs as little as possible rather than having to stretch far and wide for those extra function keys.
  - layer8 6y ago
    For me it’s the opposite: I get RSI from having to stretch my hands to press 2-3 modifiers simultaneously, whereas moving my hands a bit is no problem.
    - rgoulter 6y ago
      If there are different preferences for arrangement of keyboard layout, then my vote goes to: it would be amazing if there were a laptop where such things could be customized. Then the people who want niche 40% or 36-key layouts can go with that, and those who prefer more keys can go with that. IMO, the row-stagger is an unergonomic, archaic skeuomorphism. This is also a niche opinion. Unfortunately, I'm sure there are practical reasons why "modular keyboard" can't happen (not enough market interest, strength of the laptop hull suffers if the keyboard is a separate module, laptop couldn't be as thin, etc.).
    - wishinghand 6y ago
      Right, which is why I wanted the non-stretching version. The modifiers are quite reachable with about 50-52 keys.

com2kid 6y ago

See, I disagree, I use home/end/pageup/pagedown all the time, and having them separate in an awkward spot is annoying. I prefer having them overlaid on the arrow keys, with fn to access them. IMHO that is the one area laptop keyboards can superior to full size keyboards.

Liskni_si 6y ago
We probably need laptops with configurable keyboard layouts then, so that you can choose a variant when purchasing it and then replace it with different one if you find out you don't like it. (And then, let's not forget that keyboard layouts are somewhat configurable in software. It's easy to bind pageup to mod-uparrow and pagedown to mod-downarrow. But it can't be done if the physical keys are missing, so physical keyboard layouts with more keys are preferable to those with less keys. Unfortunately fn-combos are usually hardwired in the Embedded Controller and can't be changed easily in software.)
- fsflover 6y ago
  > We probably need laptops with configurable keyboard layouts then https://puri.sm/posts/librem-14-adding-librem-ec-freed-embedded-controller-firmware/ https://puri.sm/posts/librem-14-adding-librem-ec-freed-embed...
  - Liskni_si 6y ago
    By configurable, I mainly meant the physical layout of keys, configurable at purchase time. So that one can get a laptop with a trendy 6-row chiclet, or a proper 7-row classic ThinkPad keyboard. But yeah, being able to override the key mapping in EC is an important feature as well, and I'm glad someone's doing it! I really hope for the future where all these pieces come together: a laptop with a good physical keyboard (configurable/swappable, so that everyone can get their meaning of "good"), with configurable EC, replaceable components, etc. That would be a dream.
jpetso 6y ago
This is what makes newer ThinkPad keyboard layouts great at least in terms of arrow keys - the useless icon keys from the GP's posted image are now PgUp/PgDown, meaning you can access at least two out of the four without annoying two-handed operation. Home/End can still be bound to arrow keys plus modifier, but even there it's nice to have a dedicated key available. Basically, full-size arrow keys are what really makes the difference, and at that point you could get the best of both worlds anyway. (Let's not talk about other recent/misguided ThinkPad keyboard developments though.)

croh 6y ago

haha fn on extreme left. are you kidding?

Liskni_si 6y ago
Fn position is obviously configurable. I have ctrl/fn swapped, but plenty of people don't, and that's fine. (And then plently of people have ctrl on capslock, which is also fine. I couldn't get used to it.)
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]

nine_k 6y ago

I'm a big fan of Thinkpad keyboards, too. But am I the only person considering a split ergonomic layout with thumb clusters, to give your pinkies some rest? The touchpad could live between the keyboard halves, and never be touched by mistake. I wonder if that could be an option.

rplnt 6y ago

While I agree with you one the F keys and home block, I also understand that's something that people might not prefer. What I don't understand are the arrows. I've been using MB Pro daily for over 3 years now and I still regularly miss up/down arrows. I would never buy a device that merges them into size of one key as the MB Pro does, as well as this one.