3 ms·

The article says there's a linux/no-os option

by 1stcity3rdcoast 6y ago

aidenn0 6y ago
But only if you order the kit, not if you get it preassembled I believe.
- jdormit 6y ago
  Nothing stopping just installing linux on the preassembled one when you get I though, I assume. Although I guess you may have to pay for a Windows license in that case...
  - zorrolovsky 6y ago
    Yes, and that's the issue with most computers today: there's no way to opt out to Windows. Whether you like it or not, licensing cost is blended into the computer and even if you don't use Windows you're somehow supporting a company that you might not want to support. I undertand in 99.9% of cases people just want to buy a laptop, turn it on and have it working. But I also think there should be an easy way to opt out of Windows enforced by law so that MS don't bang up numbers due to shady commercial practices.
    - aidenn0 6y ago
      My understanding is that companies are worried about being perceived as tacitly supporting piracy if they ship with no OS. I know, for example, HP will not sell you a laptop with no OS, but they will sell you one with FreeDOS.
    - not2b 6y ago
      In many cases, the cost of the license to the OEM is negative. That's because the cost of the Windows license is more than outweighed by the payments they get for crapware, adware, and 30-day trials, they get paid to pre-install (and the crapware requires Windows). It would actually cost them more to ship with no OS.
      - Silhouette 6y ago
        That's been true historically in a lot of cases, but isn't the whole point of the Framework to do things in a different and better way? It would be very disappointing if a laptop like this was shipping with that kind of junkware installed as standard even on a Windows pre-install. In fact, it would instantly reverse my position having just heard about these guys from something like "I wish you luck, this is a much healthier direction to push the industry in, and by the way let me know when it's available in the UK because I am definitely a potential customer" to something I won't repeat here that involves not wanting anything to do with them or their products.
        nrp 6y ago
        No need to worry! Our Windows pre-install is vanilla. The only software added is the set of drivers strictly needed to make the hardware function.
        Silhouette 6y ago
        Good answer. In that case, I shall remain happy to have discovered you today and I shall continue to wish you luck in shifting the market in healthier directions. :-) FWIW, I'd be much more interested in your products as a solid platform for running Linux than whatever junk MS is including in Windows 10 this week anyway. But sometimes small issues can say a disproportionate amount about where a business really stands on some issues I care about, and things like having control over my own hardware and software for reasons ranging from longevity to privacy are high on my personal list.
- Brakenshire 6y ago
  It’s not the end of the world, but not everyone who uses Linux enjoys tinkering, some just want solid out of the box support for Ubuntu, Fedora, etc.
  - Valkhyr 6y ago
    Yep. I love Linux but hate having to futz around to get basic stuff working. I'm ready to mess with some things like display orientation on non-standard hardware like a GPD Pocket to some extent, since you can't really expect full out of the box support there, but when it comes to a proper laptop I'm averse to OS-level tinkering just to make stuff work (as opposed to tinkering in order to customize to my preferences).
- nrp 6y ago
  This is correct. There’s nothing technical preventing us from offering a pre-built bring your own OS system, but we figured there’s high overlap between that audience and those who want to assemble a kit themselves. This reduces the amount of pre-built inventory we need to hold.
  - reasonabl_human 6y ago
    I get the business case of universal pre-built inventory, but offering a Linux version out of the box signals that all hardware is compatible and fully functional... supported at a first-party level. More and more developers in big tech companies using Linux just expect it to work and aren’t interested in monkeying around with drivers and configs.. not to say they can’t, but why increase friction for your dev setup? This is one of the reasons why the XPS 13 Developer edition exists. Guaranteed first party support for Linux.. you know the next kernel or major revision won’t Bork your setup... you can just focus on working within the env. Offering a preinstalled Linux variant captures the market referenced above, and signals to tinkerers that this is a good platform to build on since all hardware is supported without jenky workarounds. Alternatively, if you can’t make offering dedicated Linux installs an economically feasible thing, then perhaps offer a mirror or set of instructions to set up latest LTS builds of various Linux flavors, to indicate full compatibility? Because that is the real selling point. Knowing all of your hardware is supported as a first party product. That’s one of the biggest reasons why I chose an XPS this time around, and considered a System76 machine as well.
    - bo1024 6y ago
      nrp's reply makes complete sense, but I like this argument as well.
    - Valkhyr 6y ago
      Seconded. I don't really need Linux pre-installed, but when I make a buying decision I would be much more likely to buy a laptop that is (a) guaranteed to be fully compatible with Linux out of the box, and that (b) the manufacturer will honor their warranty no matter which OS I choose to run. That said, I think offering Linux pre-installed would be very nice as a signaling function to attract technical-minded users.

The article says there's a linux/no-os option

aidenn0 6y ago

But only if you order the kit, not if you get it preassembled I believe.

jdormit 6y ago
Nothing stopping just installing linux on the preassembled one when you get I though, I assume. Although I guess you may have to pay for a Windows license in that case...
- zorrolovsky 6y ago
  Yes, and that's the issue with most computers today: there's no way to opt out to Windows. Whether you like it or not, licensing cost is blended into the computer and even if you don't use Windows you're somehow supporting a company that you might not want to support. I undertand in 99.9% of cases people just want to buy a laptop, turn it on and have it working. But I also think there should be an easy way to opt out of Windows enforced by law so that MS don't bang up numbers due to shady commercial practices.
  - aidenn0 6y ago
    My understanding is that companies are worried about being perceived as tacitly supporting piracy if they ship with no OS. I know, for example, HP will not sell you a laptop with no OS, but they will sell you one with FreeDOS.
  - not2b 6y ago
    In many cases, the cost of the license to the OEM is negative. That's because the cost of the Windows license is more than outweighed by the payments they get for crapware, adware, and 30-day trials, they get paid to pre-install (and the crapware requires Windows). It would actually cost them more to ship with no OS.
    - Silhouette 6y ago
      That's been true historically in a lot of cases, but isn't the whole point of the Framework to do things in a different and better way? It would be very disappointing if a laptop like this was shipping with that kind of junkware installed as standard even on a Windows pre-install. In fact, it would instantly reverse my position having just heard about these guys from something like "I wish you luck, this is a much healthier direction to push the industry in, and by the way let me know when it's available in the UK because I am definitely a potential customer" to something I won't repeat here that involves not wanting anything to do with them or their products.
      - nrp 6y ago
        No need to worry! Our Windows pre-install is vanilla. The only software added is the set of drivers strictly needed to make the hardware function.
        Silhouette 6y ago
        Good answer. In that case, I shall remain happy to have discovered you today and I shall continue to wish you luck in shifting the market in healthier directions. :-) FWIW, I'd be much more interested in your products as a solid platform for running Linux than whatever junk MS is including in Windows 10 this week anyway. But sometimes small issues can say a disproportionate amount about where a business really stands on some issues I care about, and things like having control over my own hardware and software for reasons ranging from longevity to privacy are high on my personal list.
Brakenshire 6y ago
It’s not the end of the world, but not everyone who uses Linux enjoys tinkering, some just want solid out of the box support for Ubuntu, Fedora, etc.
- Valkhyr 6y ago
  Yep. I love Linux but hate having to futz around to get basic stuff working. I'm ready to mess with some things like display orientation on non-standard hardware like a GPD Pocket to some extent, since you can't really expect full out of the box support there, but when it comes to a proper laptop I'm averse to OS-level tinkering just to make stuff work (as opposed to tinkering in order to customize to my preferences).
nrp 6y ago
This is correct. There’s nothing technical preventing us from offering a pre-built bring your own OS system, but we figured there’s high overlap between that audience and those who want to assemble a kit themselves. This reduces the amount of pre-built inventory we need to hold.
- reasonabl_human 6y ago
  I get the business case of universal pre-built inventory, but offering a Linux version out of the box signals that all hardware is compatible and fully functional... supported at a first-party level. More and more developers in big tech companies using Linux just expect it to work and aren’t interested in monkeying around with drivers and configs.. not to say they can’t, but why increase friction for your dev setup? This is one of the reasons why the XPS 13 Developer edition exists. Guaranteed first party support for Linux.. you know the next kernel or major revision won’t Bork your setup... you can just focus on working within the env. Offering a preinstalled Linux variant captures the market referenced above, and signals to tinkerers that this is a good platform to build on since all hardware is supported without jenky workarounds. Alternatively, if you can’t make offering dedicated Linux installs an economically feasible thing, then perhaps offer a mirror or set of instructions to set up latest LTS builds of various Linux flavors, to indicate full compatibility? Because that is the real selling point. Knowing all of your hardware is supported as a first party product. That’s one of the biggest reasons why I chose an XPS this time around, and considered a System76 machine as well.
  - bo1024 6y ago
    nrp's reply makes complete sense, but I like this argument as well.
  - Valkhyr 6y ago
    Seconded. I don't really need Linux pre-installed, but when I make a buying decision I would be much more likely to buy a laptop that is (a) guaranteed to be fully compatible with Linux out of the box, and that (b) the manufacturer will honor their warranty no matter which OS I choose to run. That said, I think offering Linux pre-installed would be very nice as a signaling function to attract technical-minded users.