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Don't you suppose you're being a bit dogmatic about it? Every device has to be as flexible as possible or it's against the law? Genuinely not trying to straw ma

Don't you suppose you're being a bit dogmatic about it? Every device has to be as flexible as possible or it's against the law? Genuinely not trying to straw man, but should my oven manufacturer have to account for me wanting to turn it into a space heater if I feel like it? Companies make and sell products for specific use-cases all the time. Saying the can't sell something unless they also make the product able to break away form that specific use case, regardless of time and cost to the company and consumers for parallel built in systems or whatever the lift may be doesn't sound feasible to me. I don't know, I'm on your side that I should be able to dismantle my iPhone and use the parts to my hearts content if I want to. But I'm not sure that it's something Apple has to build into the system just in case someone feels like doing it, especially since I could buy any number of other computing devices that might work just as well.

EvanAnderson 6y ago
What Google did with the Chromebooks-- an interlock that zeros the manufacturer-provided root-of-trust-- is a good example of all that I want. No more, no less. Let me flip a switch and make the device "untrusted" so that I can load my own software. I am being dogmatic. I can't think objectively about this because I have yet to see how it benefits society to absolutely remove the rights of owners to legally do what they please with their property (at least in terms of chattels).
- freeone3000 6y ago
  Even with an iPhone, you have the right to flash whatever firmware you feel like. This has been upheld in US Supreme Court cases. Apple simply is under no obligation for it to be easy for you to do so. Jailbroken iPhones aren't illegal. Apple treats them as a security risk, since mechanisms for jailbreaking iPhones exploit security flaws in order to get root-level code execution. I can't say they're wrong to do so! It's no secret that they do. Or that Apple doesn't ship anything but iOS to an iPhone, or that you won't be able to install apps from outside the App Store. These are marketed as features. Most people are interested in solving a task, and their device helps them with this. They are uninterested in general-purpose computers. And there's no shortage of them for the rest of us! Android devices are the obvious choice here, with their user-exposed flashable ROMs. (Not just the OS, but every ROM is exposed through fastboot) Or PinePhone. Or whatever Firefox is doing. You've got choices for tinkerers and general-purpose computation, it just doesn't live in a device with an apple logo.
  - mindslight 6y ago
    > you have the right to flash whatever firmware you feel like... Apple simply is under no obligation for it to be easy for you to do so This is disingenuous. Apple is not being called out for failing to create desirable functionality for iPhones. Rather Apple (et al) are being criticized for deliberately acting to purposefully constrain functionality. The first criticism would be asking manufacturers to do work to improve their products. The second criticism is telling them to stop crippling devices they sell.
sjy 6y ago
> should my oven manufacturer have to account for me wanting to turn it into a space heater if I feel like it? No, because their failure to do this has no structural consequences for the market in ovens or space heaters. Apple’s control over the market for software that can run on 2 billion iOS devices, on the other hand, is a big deal. Some think it’s Apple’s just deserts for creating a platform that users like; others think the government should end that control using the antitrust laws passed to limit corporate power at this scale.
croon 6y ago
> Don't you suppose you're being a bit dogmatic about it? Every device has to be as flexible as possible or it's against the law? Genuinely not trying to straw man, but should my oven manufacturer have to account for me wanting to turn it into a space heater if I feel like it? You're reversing the burden. Apple is spending a lot of money to NOT make it possible to tinker with it.

EvanAnderson 6y ago

What Google did with the Chromebooks-- an interlock that zeros the manufacturer-provided root-of-trust-- is a good example of all that I want. No more, no less. Let me flip a switch and make the device "untrusted" so that I can load my own software. I am being dogmatic. I can't think objectively about this because I have yet to see how it benefits society to absolutely remove the rights of owners to legally do what they please with their property (at least in terms of chattels).

freeone3000 6y ago
Even with an iPhone, you have the right to flash whatever firmware you feel like. This has been upheld in US Supreme Court cases. Apple simply is under no obligation for it to be easy for you to do so. Jailbroken iPhones aren't illegal. Apple treats them as a security risk, since mechanisms for jailbreaking iPhones exploit security flaws in order to get root-level code execution. I can't say they're wrong to do so! It's no secret that they do. Or that Apple doesn't ship anything but iOS to an iPhone, or that you won't be able to install apps from outside the App Store. These are marketed as features. Most people are interested in solving a task, and their device helps them with this. They are uninterested in general-purpose computers. And there's no shortage of them for the rest of us! Android devices are the obvious choice here, with their user-exposed flashable ROMs. (Not just the OS, but every ROM is exposed through fastboot) Or PinePhone. Or whatever Firefox is doing. You've got choices for tinkerers and general-purpose computation, it just doesn't live in a device with an apple logo.
- mindslight 6y ago
  > you have the right to flash whatever firmware you feel like... Apple simply is under no obligation for it to be easy for you to do so This is disingenuous. Apple is not being called out for failing to create desirable functionality for iPhones. Rather Apple (et al) are being criticized for deliberately acting to purposefully constrain functionality. The first criticism would be asking manufacturers to do work to improve their products. The second criticism is telling them to stop crippling devices they sell.

sjy 6y ago

> should my oven manufacturer have to account for me wanting to turn it into a space heater if I feel like it? No, because their failure to do this has no structural consequences for the market in ovens or space heaters. Apple’s control over the market for software that can run on 2 billion iOS devices, on the other hand, is a big deal. Some think it’s Apple’s just deserts for creating a platform that users like; others think the government should end that control using the antitrust laws passed to limit corporate power at this scale.

croon 6y ago

> Don't you suppose you're being a bit dogmatic about it? Every device has to be as flexible as possible or it's against the law? Genuinely not trying to straw man, but should my oven manufacturer have to account for me wanting to turn it into a space heater if I feel like it? You're reversing the burden. Apple is spending a lot of money to NOT make it possible to tinker with it.