5 ms·

Hi, When I saw this announcement I was hoping that I could finally buy a laptop with a good trackpad, with buttons, and a good keyboard again. But looking at t

by jblow 6y ago

Hi, When I saw this announcement I was hoping that I could finally buy a laptop with a good trackpad, with buttons, and a good keyboard again. But looking at the announcement, it seems like trackpad and keyboard quality are far from anyone's mind, and it just looks like the laptop is copying Apple stylistically like everyone else, which means it is going to be kind-of unusable and I won't want to use it. (Especially when running Windows, those kinds of giant Apple-esque trackpads are death, because you'll keep accidentally moving files into places you didn't mean to, and then of course there's the general unresponsiveness once you add all the PalmCheck and turn-off-trackpad-for-n-secons after typing junk). I like the idea of a laptop built for quality, but for me the #1 determinant of quality is my area of constant physical contact with the laptop, the keyboard and trackpad. And sadly, those look like afterthoughts here. (For context -- I have bought and heavily used an average of more than one laptop per year, every year, since 1998, and have been dismayed to watch the quality trend constantly downward over that time).

nrp 6y ago
Keyboard and touchpad quality were high priorities for us. We built in 1.5mm key travel, which is unusually high for a <16mm thick laptop. The touchpad surface feels great and performs well. I hear you on the touchpad buttons though. That is something we've done a little exploration on. The touchpad is an end-user replaceable module, but we can't commit to a three button version materializing just yet.
- tomtheelder 6y ago
  No buttons is clearly the logical choice. I can't imagine it would be worth building a three button version to satisfy that miniscule niche.
- Liskni_si 6y ago
  Key travel isn't everything. The layout is important as well. This is the best layout humanity ever invented: https://www.notebookcheck.net/fileadmin/_processed_/c/0/csm_MG_1549_69ed205878.jpg https://www.notebookcheck.net/fileadmin/_processed_/c/0/csm_... Classic arrow keys, separate volume buttons, separate back/forward/pageup/pagedown, F1-F12 as the primary functions, …
  - layer8 6y ago
    Full-sized (full-height!) F keys, full-sized inverted-T arrow keys, dedicated Ins/Del/Home/End/PgUp/PgDown keys, and the Menu key (as on the Thinkpad) would be ideal.
  - wishinghand 6y ago
    At this point I'd prefer few keys, just 18 per side for my fingers and a row of 4-6 for each of my thumbs. I'd handle numbers, function keys, volume, and whatever else you mentioned with layers.
    - layer8 6y ago
      Those keys already have their own layers in a lot of software. Having to press yet another additional modifier key destroys usability and muscle memory.
      - wishinghand 6y ago
        > Having to press yet another additional modifier key destroys usability and muscle memory I'm far more comfortable moving my fingers and thumbs as little as possible rather than having to stretch far and wide for those extra function keys.
        layer8 6y ago
        For me it’s the opposite: I get RSI from having to stretch my hands to press 2-3 modifiers simultaneously, whereas moving my hands a bit is no problem.
        rgoulter 6y ago
        If there are different preferences for arrangement of keyboard layout, then my vote goes to: it would be amazing if there were a laptop where such things could be customized. Then the people who want niche 40% or 36-key layouts can go with that, and those who prefer more keys can go with that. IMO, the row-stagger is an unergonomic, archaic skeuomorphism. This is also a niche opinion. Unfortunately, I'm sure there are practical reasons why "modular keyboard" can't happen (not enough market interest, strength of the laptop hull suffers if the keyboard is a separate module, laptop couldn't be as thin, etc.).
- accelbred 6y ago
  Are they mechanical keys?
- m463 6y ago
  I think if you could buck the "flat thin keys" trend you would probably develop lots of customers for life. Thin and flat has nice visual appeal, but I think you should approach it from a tactile direction. My ideal keyboard would have a little extra throw, and they keys would be sculpted to match the curve of your fingertips for comfort and to help you center on the keys. I think the thinkpad keyboards were favorites for a reason.
dcow 6y ago
In my experience trackpad and touch support on Windows has improved immensely since the introduction of the Surface. I recall the experience you’re describing but associate it with the 2010-2015 era .
ppezaris 6y ago
not intending to start an apple-vs-msft flamewar, but this has been a solved problem on the mac since forever. is the experience that bad on windows laptops that you don't want a big trackpad? genuine question.
- yunyu 6y ago
  It is for Synaptics drivers (some manufacturers like Dell, Razer, HP used to default to those) but not for precision touchpad drivers (what's used in the Surfaces).
- freeone3000 6y ago
  yeah. you definitely want palm detection off or it'll miss a good deal of swipes (if you mix typing and mousing). with palm detection off, you need the touchpad to be slightly offset to the left and small enough that it fits between your hands at rest.
wishinghand 6y ago
It's strange to see a complaint about the Apple trackpad, because whenever I use a non-Apple laptop, I despair at the trackpad. The current design is too large, but the pre-USB-C models had a perfect size and UX. I haven't ever experienced an equal.
- GordonS 6y ago
  The Apple trackpad seems to be really polarising - I often this see on HN: fans surprised anyone would dislike it, and opponents surprised anyone would like it! Personally, I'm in the latter camp. I have a 13" MBP, and find the buttons need way too much pressure, even with the sensitivity ramped up. There's also something I can't quantify... there's a feeling of it being laggy, and somehow "unpleasant" to drag my finger across. I prefer just about every other trackpad I've ever used, even those in dirt cheap netbooks.
  - codezero 6y ago
    I suspect it has something to do with their typing habits and/or some physical issue. Personally, the newest Macbooks became a problem for me despite the history of amazing palm rejection on Macbooks, I have sort of sweaty hands and when they increased the trackpad size, that combined with how I type (palm resting on the chassis, not raised), it causes a lot of jitter (I say a lot, it's super rare, but just enough to train me away from it) and I've ended up using an external mouse exclusively, but in the past year, uh, I haven't been mobile so that's just a nonissue :)
  - krrrh 6y ago
    “Buttons” Not sure if we’re talking about the same thing with that plural, but the first thing I change on a new Mac is enabling tap to click. It works great and you can avoid the annoyance of the audible click. The second thing is to enable three finger drag, which the moves into Accessibility settings about 5 years ago.
    - erikpukinskis 6y ago
      Yes, all that. And then turn the sensitivity up to max.

by jblow 6y ago

nrp 6y ago

Keyboard and touchpad quality were high priorities for us. We built in 1.5mm key travel, which is unusually high for a <16mm thick laptop. The touchpad surface feels great and performs well. I hear you on the touchpad buttons though. That is something we've done a little exploration on. The touchpad is an end-user replaceable module, but we can't commit to a three button version materializing just yet.

tomtheelder 6y ago
No buttons is clearly the logical choice. I can't imagine it would be worth building a three button version to satisfy that miniscule niche.
Liskni_si 6y ago
Key travel isn't everything. The layout is important as well. This is the best layout humanity ever invented: https://www.notebookcheck.net/fileadmin/_processed_/c/0/csm_MG_1549_69ed205878.jpg https://www.notebookcheck.net/fileadmin/_processed_/c/0/csm_... Classic arrow keys, separate volume buttons, separate back/forward/pageup/pagedown, F1-F12 as the primary functions, …
- layer8 6y ago
  Full-sized (full-height!) F keys, full-sized inverted-T arrow keys, dedicated Ins/Del/Home/End/PgUp/PgDown keys, and the Menu key (as on the Thinkpad) would be ideal.
- wishinghand 6y ago
  At this point I'd prefer few keys, just 18 per side for my fingers and a row of 4-6 for each of my thumbs. I'd handle numbers, function keys, volume, and whatever else you mentioned with layers.
  - layer8 6y ago
    Those keys already have their own layers in a lot of software. Having to press yet another additional modifier key destroys usability and muscle memory.
    - wishinghand 6y ago
      > Having to press yet another additional modifier key destroys usability and muscle memory I'm far more comfortable moving my fingers and thumbs as little as possible rather than having to stretch far and wide for those extra function keys.
      - layer8 6y ago
        For me it’s the opposite: I get RSI from having to stretch my hands to press 2-3 modifiers simultaneously, whereas moving my hands a bit is no problem.
        rgoulter 6y ago
        If there are different preferences for arrangement of keyboard layout, then my vote goes to: it would be amazing if there were a laptop where such things could be customized. Then the people who want niche 40% or 36-key layouts can go with that, and those who prefer more keys can go with that. IMO, the row-stagger is an unergonomic, archaic skeuomorphism. This is also a niche opinion. Unfortunately, I'm sure there are practical reasons why "modular keyboard" can't happen (not enough market interest, strength of the laptop hull suffers if the keyboard is a separate module, laptop couldn't be as thin, etc.).
accelbred 6y ago
Are they mechanical keys?
m463 6y ago
I think if you could buck the "flat thin keys" trend you would probably develop lots of customers for life. Thin and flat has nice visual appeal, but I think you should approach it from a tactile direction. My ideal keyboard would have a little extra throw, and they keys would be sculpted to match the curve of your fingertips for comfort and to help you center on the keys. I think the thinkpad keyboards were favorites for a reason.

dcow 6y ago

In my experience trackpad and touch support on Windows has improved immensely since the introduction of the Surface. I recall the experience you’re describing but associate it with the 2010-2015 era .

ppezaris 6y ago

not intending to start an apple-vs-msft flamewar, but this has been a solved problem on the mac since forever. is the experience that bad on windows laptops that you don't want a big trackpad? genuine question.

yunyu 6y ago
It is for Synaptics drivers (some manufacturers like Dell, Razer, HP used to default to those) but not for precision touchpad drivers (what's used in the Surfaces).
freeone3000 6y ago
yeah. you definitely want palm detection off or it'll miss a good deal of swipes (if you mix typing and mousing). with palm detection off, you need the touchpad to be slightly offset to the left and small enough that it fits between your hands at rest.

wishinghand 6y ago

It's strange to see a complaint about the Apple trackpad, because whenever I use a non-Apple laptop, I despair at the trackpad. The current design is too large, but the pre-USB-C models had a perfect size and UX. I haven't ever experienced an equal.

GordonS 6y ago
The Apple trackpad seems to be really polarising - I often this see on HN: fans surprised anyone would dislike it, and opponents surprised anyone would like it! Personally, I'm in the latter camp. I have a 13" MBP, and find the buttons need way too much pressure, even with the sensitivity ramped up. There's also something I can't quantify... there's a feeling of it being laggy, and somehow "unpleasant" to drag my finger across. I prefer just about every other trackpad I've ever used, even those in dirt cheap netbooks.
- codezero 6y ago
  I suspect it has something to do with their typing habits and/or some physical issue. Personally, the newest Macbooks became a problem for me despite the history of amazing palm rejection on Macbooks, I have sort of sweaty hands and when they increased the trackpad size, that combined with how I type (palm resting on the chassis, not raised), it causes a lot of jitter (I say a lot, it's super rare, but just enough to train me away from it) and I've ended up using an external mouse exclusively, but in the past year, uh, I haven't been mobile so that's just a nonissue :)
- krrrh 6y ago
  “Buttons” Not sure if we’re talking about the same thing with that plural, but the first thing I change on a new Mac is enabling tap to click. It works great and you can avoid the annoyance of the audible click. The second thing is to enable three finger drag, which the moves into Accessibility settings about 5 years ago.
  - erikpukinskis 6y ago
    Yes, all that. And then turn the sensitivity up to max.