5 ms·

Neat - I wonder how it’ll turn out. It’s weird how little there is in the laptop space that’s actually good. Macs, Thinkpads, maybe Dell XPS? Everything else

Neat - I wonder how it’ll turn out. It’s weird how little there is in the laptop space that’s actually good. Macs, Thinkpads, maybe Dell XPS? Everything else sucks. It’d be cool to have another high quality option.

jtl999 6y ago
I've heard good things about Clevo based designs in the past but even those seem to be questionable now.
folkrav 6y ago
Thinkpads are far from being uniformly good, some models flat out suck. Macs aren't immune to lemons either - see all the issues with their keyboards after 2016, or the failing GPUs in some MBPs. Some XPSes are good, but many models had horrible coil whine as well. The LG gram was fine, if light and portable was what you're looking for. The HP Envy line has been pretty decent recently. Back in school I've had an Asus Zenbook I've quite liked as well. I've heard good things about some System76 systems too, and they're basically Clevo rebrands. There definitely is good stuff on the laptop market.
- fossuser 6y ago
  Yeah I’m with you that even in the categories I mentioned there are problems. System76 comes up a lot, but to be blunt they seem awful. Bad resolution displays, generally terrible build, bezels, etc. I think there’s a market for a really good non Mac laptop with Mac quality hardware design.
  - folkrav 6y ago
    My point was, those high end machines that compete with mac laptops already exist. XPS, HP Spectre, Surface laptop, higher end ThinkPads and ZenBooks, Razer Blade Stealth and Pro... As for S76 systems, you can't really compare a $2000+ Macbook with a $1000 System76/Clevo ODM with the same criteria. They're just perfectly fine machines for what they cost.
    - fossuser 6y ago
      > "They're just perfectly fine machines for what they cost." Sure, but I don't care about the 'crap' segment of laptops. I want more options at the Macbook price point. People often talk about System76 as if they are Mac competitors too, so I don't entirely buy your point. > "High end machines that compete with mac laptops already exist" And they mostly suck. There isn't a good option that's a clear stand out Macbook competitor. There is no Windows/Linux hardware that's easy to point at and say this is clearly the one to get. All the competitors are a mixture of bad tradeoffs. Why? I would think Microsoft would want to make a Surface laptop that's competitive in this space (that targets developers), but they haven't really.
      - folkrav 6y ago
        > And they mostly suck. Agree to disagree - I pointed you towards 5-6 of them that globally don't suck. Macs also have tradeoffs of their own that you seem to have no trouble dismissing.
- kitsunesoba 6y ago
  I recently strongly considered a System76 Lemur but ultimately opted for a Thinkpad X1 Nano instead due to reports of QC issues with Clevo (and thus System76) laptops. It's too bad because I think they get a lot right with bringing Linux to the general consumer market, and Pop!_OS gets a few things right that plain Ubuntu gets wrong.
  - GordonS 6y ago
    How do you rate the X1?
    - kitsunesoba 6y ago
      I haven't had it long enough yet to say anything conclusive, but initial impressions are good. Compared to a MacBook, build feels solid if not quite as rigid but that's expected with how light it is. Doesn't feel flimsy. Keyboard roughly on par with that of a 2015 MBP, but with a bit more travel. Doing lightweight tasks it doesn't get hot on my lap or spin up its fan. So far have only used the included Windows 10 Pro license. Not sure how Linux fares on it but from what I've read you'll need a distro with a newer kernel.
  - xur17 6y ago
    I have gone down a similar path twice now, and also landed on the Thinkpad X1, due to a mix of QC concerns, low screen resolution, and bulky looking laptop. My main concern about Framework is QC, and making a sleek laptop (something that I would guess would be difficult to get right directly out of the gate).
tomtheelder 6y ago
The Razer laptops are IMO the best Windows option available. Not as good as the other options if you're running Linux, though.

jtl999 6y ago

I've heard good things about Clevo based designs in the past but even those seem to be questionable now.

folkrav 6y ago

Thinkpads are far from being uniformly good, some models flat out suck. Macs aren't immune to lemons either - see all the issues with their keyboards after 2016, or the failing GPUs in some MBPs. Some XPSes are good, but many models had horrible coil whine as well. The LG gram was fine, if light and portable was what you're looking for. The HP Envy line has been pretty decent recently. Back in school I've had an Asus Zenbook I've quite liked as well. I've heard good things about some System76 systems too, and they're basically Clevo rebrands. There definitely is good stuff on the laptop market.

fossuser 6y ago
Yeah I’m with you that even in the categories I mentioned there are problems. System76 comes up a lot, but to be blunt they seem awful. Bad resolution displays, generally terrible build, bezels, etc. I think there’s a market for a really good non Mac laptop with Mac quality hardware design.
- folkrav 6y ago
  My point was, those high end machines that compete with mac laptops already exist. XPS, HP Spectre, Surface laptop, higher end ThinkPads and ZenBooks, Razer Blade Stealth and Pro... As for S76 systems, you can't really compare a $2000+ Macbook with a $1000 System76/Clevo ODM with the same criteria. They're just perfectly fine machines for what they cost.
  - fossuser 6y ago
    > "They're just perfectly fine machines for what they cost." Sure, but I don't care about the 'crap' segment of laptops. I want more options at the Macbook price point. People often talk about System76 as if they are Mac competitors too, so I don't entirely buy your point. > "High end machines that compete with mac laptops already exist" And they mostly suck. There isn't a good option that's a clear stand out Macbook competitor. There is no Windows/Linux hardware that's easy to point at and say this is clearly the one to get. All the competitors are a mixture of bad tradeoffs. Why? I would think Microsoft would want to make a Surface laptop that's competitive in this space (that targets developers), but they haven't really.
    - folkrav 6y ago
      > And they mostly suck. Agree to disagree - I pointed you towards 5-6 of them that globally don't suck. Macs also have tradeoffs of their own that you seem to have no trouble dismissing.
kitsunesoba 6y ago
I recently strongly considered a System76 Lemur but ultimately opted for a Thinkpad X1 Nano instead due to reports of QC issues with Clevo (and thus System76) laptops. It's too bad because I think they get a lot right with bringing Linux to the general consumer market, and Pop!_OS gets a few things right that plain Ubuntu gets wrong.
- GordonS 6y ago
  How do you rate the X1?
  - kitsunesoba 6y ago
    I haven't had it long enough yet to say anything conclusive, but initial impressions are good. Compared to a MacBook, build feels solid if not quite as rigid but that's expected with how light it is. Doesn't feel flimsy. Keyboard roughly on par with that of a 2015 MBP, but with a bit more travel. Doing lightweight tasks it doesn't get hot on my lap or spin up its fan. So far have only used the included Windows 10 Pro license. Not sure how Linux fares on it but from what I've read you'll need a distro with a newer kernel.
- xur17 6y ago
  I have gone down a similar path twice now, and also landed on the Thinkpad X1, due to a mix of QC concerns, low screen resolution, and bulky looking laptop. My main concern about Framework is QC, and making a sleek laptop (something that I would guess would be difficult to get right directly out of the gate).

tomtheelder 6y ago

The Razer laptops are IMO the best Windows option available. Not as good as the other options if you're running Linux, though.