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Well, HN will love this. Moddable laptop with a good webcam? Nice. But: - I really dislike the arrow keys not having the air gap above left and right. You’d t

Well, HN will love this. Moddable laptop with a good webcam? Nice. But: - I really dislike the arrow keys not having the air gap above left and right. You’d think they’d learn that from the MacBook butterfly keyboard era. - it’s a little disingenuous to say “no adapters” when in fact their little expansion cards are merely adapters that insert into the chassis of the laptop. Only four I/O ports is a little tight (despite Apple deeming it to be “enough”) - that laptop looks pretty thick and heavy by today’s standards. It’ll be interesting to see how people respond, when many (especially in this crowd) have been clamoring for this kind of thing. How many will actually vote with their dollars, and will that be enough for Framework to survive and become a viable competitor in the laptop space? I hope so, as I welcome the diversity and innovation that would represent. But I admit I’m skeptical as to their chances.

nrp 6y ago
The arrow keys were an interesting challenge. We actually prototyped both versions, and the full height ones ended up feeling better to most folks. It's definitely a matter of personal preference though. The Framework Laptop comes in at 15.85mm thick and 1.3kg. So a couple of sheets of paper thicker than a 13" MacBook Pro, but a bit lighter. On the Expansion Cards, that is fair. We can say we're getting rid of the need for adapters that protrude from the machine and need to be removed when you need to transport it.
- mdpye 6y ago
  How modular is the keyboard? I can see a replacement sat next to the case in the photo, but is the layout cut in to the case? If you can make an alternative case with an (e.g.) 12x5 1u grid layout keyboard that lets me put my thumbs to use and stop contorting my fingers, I will more of less open my wallet and let you take what you fancy!
  - asoneth 6y ago
    I came to say the same thing. Ortholinear (grid) or staggered columnar keyboards would appeal to an extremely small but passionate group of ergo keyboard users. Given that the alternative for folks who use this kind of layout is to carry around a separate $150-400[1] keyboard I think at least a few people would be willing to pay a hefty premium for a laptop with a customizable keyboard. [1] https://shop.keyboard.io/products/keyboardio-atreus https://shop.keyboard.io/products/keyboardio-atreus https://www.zsa.io/moonlander/ https://www.zsa.io/moonlander/
- ajford 6y ago
  What's the chance of a thicker/deeper version in the future? I'd love to see one with enough thickness to support a low profile mechanical keyboard for custom layouts. With my RSI, I'm almost unable to use standard laptop keyboards, so I have to travel with a split ergo keyboard. Most laptops have enough room to support a split ortho layout, but aren't thick enough (or modular enough) for enthusiasts to roll their own. Take a look at the Thinkeys [0] and pineapple60 [1] projects for what's possible. [0]: https://github.com/dennisleexyz/thinkeys https://github.com/dennisleexyz/thinkeys [1]: https://github.com/saoto28/pineapple60 https://github.com/saoto28/pineapple60
  - CarVac 6y ago
    Wow, that Pineapple is amazing. I gotta do that with a Mitosis layout for myself.
- technojunkie 6y ago
  The arrow keys gap as an option would be awesome, I hope you reconsider
intrasight 6y ago
If they indeed succeed in creating an open "platform" then if you don't like the keyboard, you can replace it with one that you do like.
foobarian 6y ago
> - that laptop looks pretty thick and heavy by today’s standards. I am not a fan of today's standards. As I write (on an external A1243 keyboard) I look at the closed touchbar MBP in front of me and cringe at the gap between the cover and the body go from zero on the left to 1/4" on the right. This laptop is too thin for its own good, for no good reason, and I look forward to how sturdy this design would be with the extra thickness (not to mention all the other goodies they list).
mattowen_uk 6y ago
For me, the huge trackpad in the middle front is the problem. Centred trackpads, weren't a problem when they were about 1/2 the size, but they've steadily been getting bigger and bigger. Now almost all laptop trackpads are at a size where the base my thumb and the edge of my wrist brush against them, causing endless false touches. If I'm typing for any length of time on a laptop, I now always disable the touchpad and plug in a mouse. Give me a laptop with an offset smaller trackpad please. I suppose people who only use a laptop, learn to type with floating hands with claw-like fingers, but I use a desktop most of the time, so my resting-wrists-on-the-desk style of typing doesn't work. I can't be the only person with this problem? Edit: While I'm ranting, I am 100% sure that the touch-logic in trackpads favour right handed people (same with mobile phone screens) and as a leftie it seems harder for me to perform complex multi-touch actions than it does for right handed people.
- OldHand2018 6y ago
  I hate Windows laptop trackpads because they seem to interpret everything as a click. Fortunately you can turn that off in Control Panel. Apple's default trackpad settings are good. EDIT - my new problem with Windows 10 is that it somehow interprets certain accidental motions on the trackpad as me wanting it to move to some sort of strange workspace overview screen that appears to be completely useless and not at all what I wanted.
  - tomtheelder 6y ago
    I think it's really case by case. My previous Dell laptop was a nightmare, but I have a Razer Blade now and the trackpad experience has been flawless, totally on par with my work issued Macbook.
- jnwatson 6y ago
  I'm with you. I just got a new Precision and the track pad is 6 inches by 3.5 inches (no exaggeration). I think the idea was to accomodate left and right handers, but it has gone way overkill. It is large enough to be a Wacom-style drawing tablet.
- 6y ago
gregmac 6y ago
> Only four I/O ports is a little tight Maybe, but how many do you really need? I have lots of stuff plugged in at my desk -- but it's plugged into a dock, and there's just a single cable that goes into my laptop. Thinking about my usages in the past few years, I can't think of a time where 4 ports (of my choosing) wouldn't have worked for me -- so long as I could change them over the lifetime of the device.
andrewflnr 6y ago
It's not "disingenuous". Everyone knows they're talking about external dongles because those are the kind of adapter that's actually annoying. Complaining about their modules because they're implemented in terms of USB-C is the worst kind of technically true but semantically nonsensical nitpick, precisely because it takes a long comment like this to unpack it but only a few words to make it.
- Sebb767 6y ago
  And, additionally, using USB-C is a common and widely used standard - slamming them for using that instead of something proprietary (to make it less "dongly") is really not a good thing.
zerocrates 6y ago
I really do hate full-height left and right keys, they're strictly worse in my usage.
GordonS 6y ago
Not sure if we're looking at the same photos and specs, but it looks and seems thin and light to me - 16mm thick, and 1.3kg according to the specs. I'm aware you can get slightly thinner, but not much lighter. IMO, anything thinner that this is making horrible sacrifices elsewhere, for little more than diminishing aesthetic returns. Let's not forget that this is repairable, upgradable and expandable - when I first saw the HN title, I was convinced it was going to be a brick. It actually looks great, like a premium laptop from Dell or Lenovo. But supporting up to 64GB or memory, and repairable etc. Pretty amazing, I think.

nrp 6y ago

The arrow keys were an interesting challenge. We actually prototyped both versions, and the full height ones ended up feeling better to most folks. It's definitely a matter of personal preference though. The Framework Laptop comes in at 15.85mm thick and 1.3kg. So a couple of sheets of paper thicker than a 13" MacBook Pro, but a bit lighter. On the Expansion Cards, that is fair. We can say we're getting rid of the need for adapters that protrude from the machine and need to be removed when you need to transport it.

mdpye 6y ago
How modular is the keyboard? I can see a replacement sat next to the case in the photo, but is the layout cut in to the case? If you can make an alternative case with an (e.g.) 12x5 1u grid layout keyboard that lets me put my thumbs to use and stop contorting my fingers, I will more of less open my wallet and let you take what you fancy!
- asoneth 6y ago
  I came to say the same thing. Ortholinear (grid) or staggered columnar keyboards would appeal to an extremely small but passionate group of ergo keyboard users. Given that the alternative for folks who use this kind of layout is to carry around a separate $150-400[1] keyboard I think at least a few people would be willing to pay a hefty premium for a laptop with a customizable keyboard. [1] https://shop.keyboard.io/products/keyboardio-atreus https://shop.keyboard.io/products/keyboardio-atreus https://www.zsa.io/moonlander/ https://www.zsa.io/moonlander/
ajford 6y ago
What's the chance of a thicker/deeper version in the future? I'd love to see one with enough thickness to support a low profile mechanical keyboard for custom layouts. With my RSI, I'm almost unable to use standard laptop keyboards, so I have to travel with a split ergo keyboard. Most laptops have enough room to support a split ortho layout, but aren't thick enough (or modular enough) for enthusiasts to roll their own. Take a look at the Thinkeys [0] and pineapple60 [1] projects for what's possible. [0]: https://github.com/dennisleexyz/thinkeys https://github.com/dennisleexyz/thinkeys [1]: https://github.com/saoto28/pineapple60 https://github.com/saoto28/pineapple60
- CarVac 6y ago
  Wow, that Pineapple is amazing. I gotta do that with a Mitosis layout for myself.
technojunkie 6y ago
The arrow keys gap as an option would be awesome, I hope you reconsider

intrasight 6y ago

If they indeed succeed in creating an open "platform" then if you don't like the keyboard, you can replace it with one that you do like.

foobarian 6y ago

> - that laptop looks pretty thick and heavy by today’s standards. I am not a fan of today's standards. As I write (on an external A1243 keyboard) I look at the closed touchbar MBP in front of me and cringe at the gap between the cover and the body go from zero on the left to 1/4" on the right. This laptop is too thin for its own good, for no good reason, and I look forward to how sturdy this design would be with the extra thickness (not to mention all the other goodies they list).

mattowen_uk 6y ago

For me, the huge trackpad in the middle front is the problem. Centred trackpads, weren't a problem when they were about 1/2 the size, but they've steadily been getting bigger and bigger. Now almost all laptop trackpads are at a size where the base my thumb and the edge of my wrist brush against them, causing endless false touches. If I'm typing for any length of time on a laptop, I now always disable the touchpad and plug in a mouse. Give me a laptop with an offset smaller trackpad please. I suppose people who only use a laptop, learn to type with floating hands with claw-like fingers, but I use a desktop most of the time, so my resting-wrists-on-the-desk style of typing doesn't work. I can't be the only person with this problem? Edit: While I'm ranting, I am 100% sure that the touch-logic in trackpads favour right handed people (same with mobile phone screens) and as a leftie it seems harder for me to perform complex multi-touch actions than it does for right handed people.

OldHand2018 6y ago
I hate Windows laptop trackpads because they seem to interpret everything as a click. Fortunately you can turn that off in Control Panel. Apple's default trackpad settings are good. EDIT - my new problem with Windows 10 is that it somehow interprets certain accidental motions on the trackpad as me wanting it to move to some sort of strange workspace overview screen that appears to be completely useless and not at all what I wanted.
- tomtheelder 6y ago
  I think it's really case by case. My previous Dell laptop was a nightmare, but I have a Razer Blade now and the trackpad experience has been flawless, totally on par with my work issued Macbook.
jnwatson 6y ago
I'm with you. I just got a new Precision and the track pad is 6 inches by 3.5 inches (no exaggeration). I think the idea was to accomodate left and right handers, but it has gone way overkill. It is large enough to be a Wacom-style drawing tablet.
6y ago

gregmac 6y ago

> Only four I/O ports is a little tight Maybe, but how many do you really need? I have lots of stuff plugged in at my desk -- but it's plugged into a dock, and there's just a single cable that goes into my laptop. Thinking about my usages in the past few years, I can't think of a time where 4 ports (of my choosing) wouldn't have worked for me -- so long as I could change them over the lifetime of the device.

andrewflnr 6y ago

It's not "disingenuous". Everyone knows they're talking about external dongles because those are the kind of adapter that's actually annoying. Complaining about their modules because they're implemented in terms of USB-C is the worst kind of technically true but semantically nonsensical nitpick, precisely because it takes a long comment like this to unpack it but only a few words to make it.

Sebb767 6y ago
And, additionally, using USB-C is a common and widely used standard - slamming them for using that instead of something proprietary (to make it less "dongly") is really not a good thing.

zerocrates 6y ago

I really do hate full-height left and right keys, they're strictly worse in my usage.

GordonS 6y ago

Not sure if we're looking at the same photos and specs, but it looks and seems thin and light to me - 16mm thick, and 1.3kg according to the specs. I'm aware you can get slightly thinner, but not much lighter. IMO, anything thinner that this is making horrible sacrifices elsewhere, for little more than diminishing aesthetic returns. Let's not forget that this is repairable, upgradable and expandable - when I first saw the HN title, I was convinced it was going to be a brick. It actually looks great, like a premium laptop from Dell or Lenovo. But supporting up to 64GB or memory, and repairable etc. Pretty amazing, I think.