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I think the Trolley Problem is deeply flawed because of the presumption of personal responsibility. I would bet when people put themselves in that position, the

I think the Trolley Problem is deeply flawed because of the presumption of personal responsibility. I would bet when people put themselves in that position, they don't think of themselves as in charge of the trolley track switching. I would bet if it were reframed as 'you are in charge of the trolleys. All day long, you control the switching of the tracks. Now you see a situation ...' you would get a totally different answer. I mean, whenever I imagine this problem, I think ... I would be nervous to pull some lever. I think subconsciously I factor in the unknown of whether I really understand the situation and the result of my action.

wongarsu 6y ago
The youtube channel vsauce tried putting people in this situation by putting them in a fake railroad switching outpost and having the operator step out for a phonecall. They took care to educate the subject exactly on how the system works without them suspecting anything, trying to eliminate many of the factors you mention. The video is well worth a watch https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1sl5KJ69qiA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1sl5KJ69qiA
- cbozeman 6y ago
  So if your life is in the hands of most people, you're as good as dead. That's incredibly depressing.
  - sneak 6y ago
    I think the "in the hands" is the part up for debate. The question is a matter of responsibility, ultimately, in my view. A better rephrase would be "if you are default-dead, you are probably default-dead", which is less depressing.
- jlokier 6y ago
  Just watched. I agree, it's a really good video.
- whiddershins 6y ago
  Cool! That ameliorates part of it but doesn’t seem to strike at the heart of it for me. If I were THE OPERATOR like ... dude, this is YOUR JOB, I would almost certainly pull the lever, as a stand in I probably still wouldn’t. I’m not even sure I can explain why. And I also think whatever I say I would do is only a moderately accurate predictor of what I would actually do.
ramoz 6y ago
agree... yea I think it's a bit of a future-tech fallacy. Autonomous systems should have the infrastructure in place that allows for accurate prediction well ahead of the time needed for risk mitigation.
jjcc 6y ago
There are variations of the original version though. But there are some important variations missing to detach from reality so people could have less controversial or provocative dilemma. For example: 1.If there are 50k people instead of 5 people on the other track? 2.If the decision maker is not a bystander but an operator whose duty is responsible for the safety of the system? 3.If two tracks are invisible (Except the switch operator) before the switching happens. And only one track could be left to be seen by modern human's eye after switching happen. Ether 50k die or 1 die but there's only one track left.
- alasdair_ 6y ago
  >1.If there are 50k people instead of 5 people on the other track? Is choosing to hit the 50K people to remove them from the gene pool for being dumb enough to stand on the tracks of an active train yard a viable response? :)
  - notretarded 6y ago
    No
ravi-delia 6y ago
> I mean, whenever I imagine this problem, I think ... I would be nervous to pull some lever. I think subconsciously I factor in the unknown of whether I really understand the situation and the result of my action. That puts into words exactly my feeling on the matter. In the abstract I can say that I would sacrifice 1 to save 5, but I know for a fact that in real life I would never pull that lever. Perhaps it's irrational, but I'd be terrified that I missed something! Would the lever actually move? Are the tracks really lined up that way? Isn't there someone that's supposed to be moving the tracks right, and would my throwing of the switch interfere with their trying to do the same thing? None of that detracts from the philosophical question at the core of course, but I'd bet that a lot of people that say they wouldn't pull it because they're thinking about that kind of thing.

wongarsu 6y ago

The youtube channel vsauce tried putting people in this situation by putting them in a fake railroad switching outpost and having the operator step out for a phonecall. They took care to educate the subject exactly on how the system works without them suspecting anything, trying to eliminate many of the factors you mention. The video is well worth a watch https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1sl5KJ69qiA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1sl5KJ69qiA

cbozeman 6y ago
So if your life is in the hands of most people, you're as good as dead. That's incredibly depressing.
- sneak 6y ago
  I think the "in the hands" is the part up for debate. The question is a matter of responsibility, ultimately, in my view. A better rephrase would be "if you are default-dead, you are probably default-dead", which is less depressing.
jlokier 6y ago
Just watched. I agree, it's a really good video.
whiddershins 6y ago
Cool! That ameliorates part of it but doesn’t seem to strike at the heart of it for me. If I were THE OPERATOR like ... dude, this is YOUR JOB, I would almost certainly pull the lever, as a stand in I probably still wouldn’t. I’m not even sure I can explain why. And I also think whatever I say I would do is only a moderately accurate predictor of what I would actually do.

ramoz 6y ago

agree... yea I think it's a bit of a future-tech fallacy. Autonomous systems should have the infrastructure in place that allows for accurate prediction well ahead of the time needed for risk mitigation.

jjcc 6y ago

There are variations of the original version though. But there are some important variations missing to detach from reality so people could have less controversial or provocative dilemma. For example: 1.If there are 50k people instead of 5 people on the other track? 2.If the decision maker is not a bystander but an operator whose duty is responsible for the safety of the system? 3.If two tracks are invisible (Except the switch operator) before the switching happens. And only one track could be left to be seen by modern human's eye after switching happen. Ether 50k die or 1 die but there's only one track left.

alasdair_ 6y ago
>1.If there are 50k people instead of 5 people on the other track? Is choosing to hit the 50K people to remove them from the gene pool for being dumb enough to stand on the tracks of an active train yard a viable response? :)
- notretarded 6y ago
  No

ravi-delia 6y ago

> I mean, whenever I imagine this problem, I think ... I would be nervous to pull some lever. I think subconsciously I factor in the unknown of whether I really understand the situation and the result of my action. That puts into words exactly my feeling on the matter. In the abstract I can say that I would sacrifice 1 to save 5, but I know for a fact that in real life I would never pull that lever. Perhaps it's irrational, but I'd be terrified that I missed something! Would the lever actually move? Are the tracks really lined up that way? Isn't there someone that's supposed to be moving the tracks right, and would my throwing of the switch interfere with their trying to do the same thing? None of that detracts from the philosophical question at the core of course, but I'd bet that a lot of people that say they wouldn't pull it because they're thinking about that kind of thing.