3 ms·

Pretty much none of this comment is true besides maybe the mass transit thing, which again depends where you live, if you're a dev in the US (as the OP you resp

by np- 6y ago

Pretty much none of this comment is true besides maybe the mass transit thing, which again depends where you live, if you're a dev in the US (as the OP you responded to said is their profession). This almost strikes me as a Reddit-comment-style parody, so maybe I was whooshed.

ido 6y ago
I get all of what the parent comments describes for Europe and more here in Berlin: * hard to get fired and you get generous unemployment benefits if you do. * ambulance rides and medical treatment is free, medication is heavily subsidized. * cancer treatment and twice yearly MRIs afterwards are free (I know this from personal experience unfortunately) * 25 days vacation per year (I think legal minimum is a bit less but never had a job that offered below that) * never owned a car or even a driver's license, been living in Europe since 2005 and have 2 little kids. Not to mention: * 14 months parental leave * >200€ per month per kid, up to age 26(!) unless they start working & earning earlier than that * free education * free childcare from 1 year of age * loads of tenant's protections - from rent control to almost unbreakable rental contracts with no expiry date by default (landlords need a very good reason to throw you out & can't increase rent beyond the rate of inflation) Furthermore we got more or less the same benefits when we lived in Vienna as well & I'm pretty sure this is not unusual for continental western europe. It's true though that in the eastern states you get a lot less. So instead of Europe maybe we should say "wealthy continental western european countries" - if you live in e.g. Bulgaria or Ukraine you don't get many of these benefits and these countries are still in Europe (and Bulgaria is in the EU).
- np- 6y ago
  I get what you're saying, and I'm not denying this all exists in Europe. And I don't mean that America is perfect, it's actually in a shameful state for many people. But what I mean is that the "brutal reality" of the US doesn't exist for many software devs. I don't mean this as a humblebrag, but my wife and I are both software engineers in the NYC area, both in non-FAANG companies. * My wife was laid off in 2019, pre-COVID. She got almost 9 months worth of full US salary paid. Likely equivalent to 2-3 years salary in Europe. She found a new job within 3 months and pocketed the rest. Obviously, stronger employment protection is nice, but the generous cash payout is a nice consolation prize. * Health insurance for both of us is excellent. The cost compared to salary is negligible (fortunately, the worst we've had to deal with is serious dental surgery, which was handled very professionally and cost effectively). * Unlimited vacation for both of us. We have spent the past month in Florida. * We live in NYC, public transit is excellent for US standards (though it's garbage compared to Asia). We do have a car entirely voluntarily, it's not necessary. My wife doesn't drive at all. * Parental leave ~6 months for each of us. Like I said, we're at non-FAANG no name companies that you've probably never heard of. FAANG would be much more generous. On top of all this, we're paid extremely generously, likely 2-3x what you would expect in Berlin/Amsterdam plus generous equity compensation. If you're responsible with saving your money, there's basically no place better to be a software engineer on the planet.
  - ido 6y ago
    Yeah I don't think the argument was ever that if you're in the top 10% (or whatever) of society economically you'll get more in the US than in Europe (or anywhere else). In Europe everyone is squeezed more towards the middle - less risk and less reward. The point is that I want to live in a more egalitarian society even if that means I personally have to pay higher taxes (relative to what I get back in social services). But also I think you may overestimate how secure your position is - people get sick in a way that means they can't work for a while (or at all), or are limited in how much they can work. I also never thought it would happen to me but when I was in my mid 30s with no history of serious illness or any health issues I was diagnosed with a malignant brain tumor. I had to get operated to remove it pretty much instantly and was not able to work for months afterwards. For as long as 6 months after the operation I was only working very part time, and this is for a more or less best case scenario with cancer - it was caught early & I didn't need chemotherapy or radiation therapy. If I was less fortunate I may have been unable to work for a year+ afterwards and may have never 100% fully recovered. And this is not the only way your fortunes can change, you can get hit by a bus, get injured in a burglary, get drunk one night and slip and fall. All of these can more or less random events can result in you continuing to live but without the ability to command as high a wage afterwards. I personally know people (software engineers even) that experienced stuff like that, or even seemingly less severe issues (burn out, depression) that still meant they were no longer at the top of society economically like they were used to. I want to reiterate that I'm not trying to convince you you are "wrong" - maybe your personal risk/reward tolerance is such that where you are makes more sense for you. I'm an immigrant here and could have immigrated to the US instead of to Europe if I wanted to (I'm Israeli so had no particular advantage that would have made it easier to go to Europe than to America).
    - np- 6y ago
      You’re right, and again I’m not saying America is perfect. This was specifically in the context of being a developer, of which very little of the parent comment is true. Risk/reward and all that, yes, that’s likely a cultural or personal issue where we might weigh the pros and cons differently, which is fine. I’m not saying my way is the only way. But I do also feel on a personal level that for an American born in America, running off to Europe in search of a more perfect society is basically no different just running off to a gated community somewhere in a rich state where I don’t have to see the poor people anymore. They’re still there though, just out of sight. Since I do see problems and do have the resources to help, I’m obligated to do what I can. But again that’s a personal decision, and I would never truly knock on someone who was genuinely trying to improve their lot in life.

by np- 6y ago

ido 6y ago

I get all of what the parent comments describes for Europe and more here in Berlin: * hard to get fired and you get generous unemployment benefits if you do. * ambulance rides and medical treatment is free, medication is heavily subsidized. * cancer treatment and twice yearly MRIs afterwards are free (I know this from personal experience unfortunately) * 25 days vacation per year (I think legal minimum is a bit less but never had a job that offered below that) * never owned a car or even a driver's license, been living in Europe since 2005 and have 2 little kids. Not to mention: * 14 months parental leave * >200€ per month per kid, up to age 26(!) unless they start working & earning earlier than that * free education * free childcare from 1 year of age * loads of tenant's protections - from rent control to almost unbreakable rental contracts with no expiry date by default (landlords need a very good reason to throw you out & can't increase rent beyond the rate of inflation) Furthermore we got more or less the same benefits when we lived in Vienna as well & I'm pretty sure this is not unusual for continental western europe. It's true though that in the eastern states you get a lot less. So instead of Europe maybe we should say "wealthy continental western european countries" - if you live in e.g. Bulgaria or Ukraine you don't get many of these benefits and these countries are still in Europe (and Bulgaria is in the EU).

np- 6y ago
I get what you're saying, and I'm not denying this all exists in Europe. And I don't mean that America is perfect, it's actually in a shameful state for many people. But what I mean is that the "brutal reality" of the US doesn't exist for many software devs. I don't mean this as a humblebrag, but my wife and I are both software engineers in the NYC area, both in non-FAANG companies. * My wife was laid off in 2019, pre-COVID. She got almost 9 months worth of full US salary paid. Likely equivalent to 2-3 years salary in Europe. She found a new job within 3 months and pocketed the rest. Obviously, stronger employment protection is nice, but the generous cash payout is a nice consolation prize. * Health insurance for both of us is excellent. The cost compared to salary is negligible (fortunately, the worst we've had to deal with is serious dental surgery, which was handled very professionally and cost effectively). * Unlimited vacation for both of us. We have spent the past month in Florida. * We live in NYC, public transit is excellent for US standards (though it's garbage compared to Asia). We do have a car entirely voluntarily, it's not necessary. My wife doesn't drive at all. * Parental leave ~6 months for each of us. Like I said, we're at non-FAANG no name companies that you've probably never heard of. FAANG would be much more generous. On top of all this, we're paid extremely generously, likely 2-3x what you would expect in Berlin/Amsterdam plus generous equity compensation. If you're responsible with saving your money, there's basically no place better to be a software engineer on the planet.
- ido 6y ago
  Yeah I don't think the argument was ever that if you're in the top 10% (or whatever) of society economically you'll get more in the US than in Europe (or anywhere else). In Europe everyone is squeezed more towards the middle - less risk and less reward. The point is that I want to live in a more egalitarian society even if that means I personally have to pay higher taxes (relative to what I get back in social services). But also I think you may overestimate how secure your position is - people get sick in a way that means they can't work for a while (or at all), or are limited in how much they can work. I also never thought it would happen to me but when I was in my mid 30s with no history of serious illness or any health issues I was diagnosed with a malignant brain tumor. I had to get operated to remove it pretty much instantly and was not able to work for months afterwards. For as long as 6 months after the operation I was only working very part time, and this is for a more or less best case scenario with cancer - it was caught early & I didn't need chemotherapy or radiation therapy. If I was less fortunate I may have been unable to work for a year+ afterwards and may have never 100% fully recovered. And this is not the only way your fortunes can change, you can get hit by a bus, get injured in a burglary, get drunk one night and slip and fall. All of these can more or less random events can result in you continuing to live but without the ability to command as high a wage afterwards. I personally know people (software engineers even) that experienced stuff like that, or even seemingly less severe issues (burn out, depression) that still meant they were no longer at the top of society economically like they were used to. I want to reiterate that I'm not trying to convince you you are "wrong" - maybe your personal risk/reward tolerance is such that where you are makes more sense for you. I'm an immigrant here and could have immigrated to the US instead of to Europe if I wanted to (I'm Israeli so had no particular advantage that would have made it easier to go to Europe than to America).
  - np- 6y ago
    You’re right, and again I’m not saying America is perfect. This was specifically in the context of being a developer, of which very little of the parent comment is true. Risk/reward and all that, yes, that’s likely a cultural or personal issue where we might weigh the pros and cons differently, which is fine. I’m not saying my way is the only way. But I do also feel on a personal level that for an American born in America, running off to Europe in search of a more perfect society is basically no different just running off to a gated community somewhere in a rich state where I don’t have to see the poor people anymore. They’re still there though, just out of sight. Since I do see problems and do have the resources to help, I’m obligated to do what I can. But again that’s a personal decision, and I would never truly knock on someone who was genuinely trying to improve their lot in life.