6 ms·

in reverse. the evolution of the modern financial system is less and less friction for each transaction, lower costs. crypto: more friction, slower transact

in reverse. the evolution of the modern financial system is less and less friction for each transaction, lower costs. crypto: more friction, slower transactions, higher transaction costs. And wicked exchange volatility. Plus no way to expand or contract the supply to prevent economic shocks. I like my fiat and central banks, thank you very much.

bhupy 6y ago
> I like my fiat and central banks, thank you very much. I do too! But some people don't. And it appears that there are now options for everyone, which seems...good?
- grey-area 6y ago
  Entirely unregulated markets are not good, they are awful, and they can go on for quite a while before blowing up, taking the life savings of lots of ordinary people with them.
  - bhupy 6y ago
    I mean, no disagreements that unregulated markets can turn out disastrously (and hurt ordinary people). But regulated currencies can also turn out disastrously bad (see: Venezuela, Zimbabwe hyperinflation, Nigeria, Argentina). This hurts ordinary people too. There's an Argentinian in this very thread that's chimed in with their personal experience. I won't pretend one approach is strictly superior to the other, nor am I suggesting that one ought to put 100% of their life savings into BTC or US T-bonds, but having options allows the ordinary person to hedge. That's the point. Optionality is good, and because BTC isn't legal tender (nor will it ever be), nobody is forced to use it anyway.
    - grey-area 6y ago
      Very true some jurisdictions are very risky, I’m just sceptical than Bitcoin is a) a viable currency and b) not riddled with fraud.
mirekrusin 6y ago
Cars are not replacement for horses. You have to have factories, they break, you need to rely on fuel supply, they also pollute and go too fast - they can kill you. I like my horses, thank you very much!
Galanwe 6y ago
> the evolution of the modern financial system is less and less friction for each transaction Still, buying shares of a company is much more "friction" than buying coins. > crypto: more friction Can you elaborate? > slower transactions Huh, even bitcoin will settle with 6 confirmations in an hour. Settlement to buy a share or FX is 2/3 days. > higher transaction costs Hmm, no. > And wicked exchange volatility. Volatility is a property of the underlying currency, not to "crypto currencies" in general. The volatility of USDTxUSD is zero. > Plus no way to expand or contract the supply to prevent economic shocks. You are mixing "crypto currency" and "bitcoin".
- spamalot159 6y ago
  You are comparing crypto currencies to stocks. In that case what you said is true. But I think the fairer comparison is crypto currency to a fiat currency. There is more friction involved in using crypto currency to make a purchase. It does take longer to processes a bitcoin transaction than it would for visa to processes a transaction in usd. And the transaction costs for a typical transaction are usually higher for bitcoin (maybe not all crypto currencies though). I think the fact that a lot of people compare crypto currencies to stocks is telling that they are not being used for their intended purpose.
  - eurasiantiger 6y ago
    One could get a crypto credit card and spend transparently in fiat. No friction involved.
    - freeone3000 6y ago
      That's spending a Bitcoin balance, not Bitcoin. You might as well hold a Bitcoin index, and sell that. Or sell a Satoshi and transfer out the fiat, which is what it is. It has nothing to do with the transfer of Bitcoin: the same person holds your Bitcoin balance and your fractional fiat balance and decides the exchange rate. There's no blockchain there.
  - Galanwe 6y ago
charcircuit 6y ago
>more friction, slower transactions, higher transaction costs. And wicked exchange volatility. You are taking a look at the start of the speedrun and claiming that it's already over. All of those issues will eventually be solved. >Plus no way to expand or contract the supply This is simply not true. It is entirely possible to make it possible to mint new coins. You can burn coins by buying them back and sending them to a wallet owned by no one.
- wpietri 6y ago
  > All of those issues will eventually be solved. When does "eventually" arrive? For 12 years I've been hearing that all of the problems of cryptocurrency will be solved very soon. But merchant adoption peaked years ago and has notably declined. Most of the problems are still problems. At this point, I'm pretty sure "eventually" means what I mean by "soon" as a teen when my parents asked me to clean my room. That is, "not now and I'd like to keep ignoring the topic please".
koonsolo 6y ago
I'm in EU, you in US? Send me $50.000 in the weekend through your bank. Let's see how fast it goes. I'll send you any amount you want with Nano: <1 second transaction, 0 fee. Try to beat that!
- ceejayoz 6y ago
  It'll presumably take more than one second to convert it to a usable currency, i.e. Euros. How often do you need $50k without being able to wait a business day?
  - koonsolo 6y ago
    Ok, then send me a $0.001 micro transaction. Same deal.
    - ceejayoz 6y ago
      How are you going to convert $0.001 to Euros? Why is receiving $0.001 a matter of urgency that can't wait until tomorrow?
      - koonsolo 6y ago
        Funny how this conversation started how crypto is slow and expensive, and now turned into slow and expensive is OK :P. In a crypto world, you don't need to convert to Euros. Are we in a crypto world yet? No. Will we live in crypto world in the future? Maybe, when it's faster and cheaper ;).
        ceejayoz 6y ago
        It's a bit of both. For the common transactions people make, crypto is both slow and expensive. I can Zelle someone instantly, for free. In the EU, Australia, etc., bank-to-bank transfers are similarly instant. I don't know that Bitcoin etc. ever get to totally free in this fashion, and it's probably 99.9% of most people's money transfer usage. For the uncommon transactions - like the $50k international transfer you mention - slow tends to be OK, and it's likely gonna have some expense either way. Short version: In contrived scenarios, Bitcoin may come out on top, but that's not likely to convince many people.
pcthrowaway 6y ago
> more friction, slower transactions, higher transaction costs. Bitcoin, sure. Plenty of other cryptocurrencies which don't have these issues. Cardano has faster transactions than any monetary transfer method (besides cash), with low fees. You also get Bitcoin cash has negligible transactions fees with 10-20 minute transactions. Nano has fee-less, near-instant transactions (could actually compete with cash for p2p transactions)
- koonsolo 6y ago
  Everything you said is true, yet still getting downvoted. HN doesn't like crypto. Say anything pro crypto (even when it's true) and get downvoted. very sad.
godelzilla 6y ago
Pretty sure central banks have never intentionally or significantly "contracted" their pyramid schemes. https://www.investopedia.com/articles/investing/051315/what-deflation-and-how-do-central-banks-fight-it.asp https://www.investopedia.com/articles/investing/051315/what-...

bhupy 6y ago

> I like my fiat and central banks, thank you very much. I do too! But some people don't. And it appears that there are now options for everyone, which seems...good?

grey-area 6y ago
Entirely unregulated markets are not good, they are awful, and they can go on for quite a while before blowing up, taking the life savings of lots of ordinary people with them.
- bhupy 6y ago
  I mean, no disagreements that unregulated markets can turn out disastrously (and hurt ordinary people). But regulated currencies can also turn out disastrously bad (see: Venezuela, Zimbabwe hyperinflation, Nigeria, Argentina). This hurts ordinary people too. There's an Argentinian in this very thread that's chimed in with their personal experience. I won't pretend one approach is strictly superior to the other, nor am I suggesting that one ought to put 100% of their life savings into BTC or US T-bonds, but having options allows the ordinary person to hedge. That's the point. Optionality is good, and because BTC isn't legal tender (nor will it ever be), nobody is forced to use it anyway.
  - grey-area 6y ago
    Very true some jurisdictions are very risky, I’m just sceptical than Bitcoin is a) a viable currency and b) not riddled with fraud.

mirekrusin 6y ago

Cars are not replacement for horses. You have to have factories, they break, you need to rely on fuel supply, they also pollute and go too fast - they can kill you. I like my horses, thank you very much!

Galanwe 6y ago

> the evolution of the modern financial system is less and less friction for each transaction Still, buying shares of a company is much more "friction" than buying coins. > crypto: more friction Can you elaborate? > slower transactions Huh, even bitcoin will settle with 6 confirmations in an hour. Settlement to buy a share or FX is 2/3 days. > higher transaction costs Hmm, no. > And wicked exchange volatility. Volatility is a property of the underlying currency, not to "crypto currencies" in general. The volatility of USDTxUSD is zero. > Plus no way to expand or contract the supply to prevent economic shocks. You are mixing "crypto currency" and "bitcoin".

spamalot159 6y ago
You are comparing crypto currencies to stocks. In that case what you said is true. But I think the fairer comparison is crypto currency to a fiat currency. There is more friction involved in using crypto currency to make a purchase. It does take longer to processes a bitcoin transaction than it would for visa to processes a transaction in usd. And the transaction costs for a typical transaction are usually higher for bitcoin (maybe not all crypto currencies though). I think the fact that a lot of people compare crypto currencies to stocks is telling that they are not being used for their intended purpose.
- eurasiantiger 6y ago
  One could get a crypto credit card and spend transparently in fiat. No friction involved.
  - freeone3000 6y ago
    That's spending a Bitcoin balance, not Bitcoin. You might as well hold a Bitcoin index, and sell that. Or sell a Satoshi and transfer out the fiat, which is what it is. It has nothing to do with the transfer of Bitcoin: the same person holds your Bitcoin balance and your fractional fiat balance and decides the exchange rate. There's no blockchain there.
- Galanwe 6y ago

charcircuit 6y ago

>more friction, slower transactions, higher transaction costs. And wicked exchange volatility. You are taking a look at the start of the speedrun and claiming that it's already over. All of those issues will eventually be solved. >Plus no way to expand or contract the supply This is simply not true. It is entirely possible to make it possible to mint new coins. You can burn coins by buying them back and sending them to a wallet owned by no one.

wpietri 6y ago
> All of those issues will eventually be solved. When does "eventually" arrive? For 12 years I've been hearing that all of the problems of cryptocurrency will be solved very soon. But merchant adoption peaked years ago and has notably declined. Most of the problems are still problems. At this point, I'm pretty sure "eventually" means what I mean by "soon" as a teen when my parents asked me to clean my room. That is, "not now and I'd like to keep ignoring the topic please".

koonsolo 6y ago

I'm in EU, you in US? Send me $50.000 in the weekend through your bank. Let's see how fast it goes. I'll send you any amount you want with Nano: <1 second transaction, 0 fee. Try to beat that!

ceejayoz 6y ago
It'll presumably take more than one second to convert it to a usable currency, i.e. Euros. How often do you need $50k without being able to wait a business day?
- koonsolo 6y ago
  Ok, then send me a $0.001 micro transaction. Same deal.
  - ceejayoz 6y ago
    How are you going to convert $0.001 to Euros? Why is receiving $0.001 a matter of urgency that can't wait until tomorrow?
    - koonsolo 6y ago
      Funny how this conversation started how crypto is slow and expensive, and now turned into slow and expensive is OK :P. In a crypto world, you don't need to convert to Euros. Are we in a crypto world yet? No. Will we live in crypto world in the future? Maybe, when it's faster and cheaper ;).
      - ceejayoz 6y ago
        It's a bit of both. For the common transactions people make, crypto is both slow and expensive. I can Zelle someone instantly, for free. In the EU, Australia, etc., bank-to-bank transfers are similarly instant. I don't know that Bitcoin etc. ever get to totally free in this fashion, and it's probably 99.9% of most people's money transfer usage. For the uncommon transactions - like the $50k international transfer you mention - slow tends to be OK, and it's likely gonna have some expense either way. Short version: In contrived scenarios, Bitcoin may come out on top, but that's not likely to convince many people.

pcthrowaway 6y ago

> more friction, slower transactions, higher transaction costs. Bitcoin, sure. Plenty of other cryptocurrencies which don't have these issues. Cardano has faster transactions than any monetary transfer method (besides cash), with low fees. You also get Bitcoin cash has negligible transactions fees with 10-20 minute transactions. Nano has fee-less, near-instant transactions (could actually compete with cash for p2p transactions)

koonsolo 6y ago
Everything you said is true, yet still getting downvoted. HN doesn't like crypto. Say anything pro crypto (even when it's true) and get downvoted. very sad.

godelzilla 6y ago

Pretty sure central banks have never intentionally or significantly "contracted" their pyramid schemes. https://www.investopedia.com/articles/investing/051315/what-deflation-and-how-do-central-banks-fight-it.asp https://www.investopedia.com/articles/investing/051315/what-...