7 ms·

As a dev based in EU, in any year I was at around 50% of the expected American level. The healthcare and social systems are so underfunded and overloaded in mos

As a dev based in EU, in any year I was at around 50% of the expected American level. The healthcare and social systems are so underfunded and overloaded in most of the EU countries that in case of any health or life problems I expect to receive "American-style" support (ie. ending up on the street, with bills and debt collection hounding me). Why even bother being employed?

ido 6y ago
I don't know where in the EU you are but I live in Germany and had to have cancer treatment a few years ago & got outstanding care for no cost. Also having two children the amount of support we (and everyone who has kids) get from the state here is excellent.
- durnygbur 6y ago
  This will last at most only 5-10 years more [1]. Poland, Romania, Bulgaria, Italy, Spain and Greece are brain-drained to the bone already. There is noone to come over. [1] https://www.populationpyramid.net/germany/2020/ https://www.populationpyramid.net/germany/2020/
  - ido 6y ago
    I've worked at tech companies since we moved here in 2013 and at least for developers most of the "imported talent" were from non-EU former Soviet countries (Russia, Ukraine, etc), India or Latin America.
  - iamlucaswolf 6y ago
    This might be a fair assumption from a birth statistics viewpoint, but completely misses immigration. I met a lot of brilliant people from all over the world during my undergrad at TU Munich; many of them stayed. Google, Apple, Microsoft have expanded rather aggressively over the past years, and the startup scene is growing. Berlin, Hamburg, Frankfurt seem to follow suit. Granted, it's much less likely (and also less politically incentivized) to become a "millionaire employee", but I guess ultimately, the correlation between wealth and wellbeing is simply weaker in (northern) European economies? As long as immigration policies don't change (and why would they? the current model aligns well with lobby incentives), I don't see much reason for this to change. Also, Poland, Romania, Bulgaria, Spain, and Greece have a different political and economic history than Germany, France, Denmark, Sweden, etc.
  - luch 6y ago
    Holy shit, I knew from anecdotal evidences that young people from Spain and Italy were "fleeing" their country but the demographics are frankly scary ! I don't know how what the retirement scheme is implemented over there, but if it is generational (young gens pays for older gens) they willy have a BIG problem in 15/20 years ...
    - durnygbur 6y ago
      The population pyramids of Germany, Spain, Italy are interestingly similar while the economies of the latter two are in deep problems. Retirement age in Germany is 67, wait for it. Putting aside the tabloid hysteria I dare to presume that this was one of the main reasons of Brexit. The entire Europe will hiccup.
  - eeZah7Ux 6y ago
    This is huge exaggeration and generalization. Some parts of EU are doing very well economically and have very quality of life. Cherry-picking specific countries does not represent the totality.
- Cthulhu_ 6y ago
  I live in the Netherlands and I pay nearly 150 / month in health insurance, my employer pays another heap, and on top of that I have a mandatory minimal deductible, medication that isn't on a list gets billed extra, and a lot of things are not covered by default (like glasses, physical therapy) or have a max coverage (like dental work).
  - em500 6y ago
    The total spending on health care in the Netherlands in 2019 was €510 per person per month[1]. That need to be paid in somehow. [1] https://www.cbs.nl/nl-nl/nieuws/2020/24/zorguitgaven-stegen-in-2019-met-5-2-procent https://www.cbs.nl/nl-nl/nieuws/2020/24/zorguitgaven-stegen-...
  - ido 6y ago
    I pay a lot more than you, but I'm ok with it cause it's a % of my wage and it means people much poorer than me get free/cheap healthcare. I'm not familiar with what is covered in the Netherland but here the normal public insurance really does cover a lot.
    - consp 6y ago
      Not just poor people. Kids are insured by the ZVW premie which the employers pay for everyone. They are subscribed on one of the parents insurance but for the basic insurance this is free. Additional insurance can cost money for kids.
      - ido 6y ago
        That's true! And when my wife was home when they were babies all 4 of us were insured on my contribution alone.
  - durnygbur 6y ago
    > nearly 150 / month in health insurance, my employer pays another heap This contribution is in line with public health insurance in Poland, which in practice doesn't cover any services and is completely disfunctional. German one which actually delivers is twice as much.
aweb 6y ago
I'm sorry but you're exaggerating quite a lot. Were are you based? In France this is definitely not the case. Public care works and is efficient enough.
- durnygbur 6y ago
  Poland.
- finikytou 6y ago
  I wouldn't say france works and is efficient enough. You can see the covid crisis as a revelatory of what doctors and hospital are going trough in france. underfunded, directed by people from business schools looking at profitability (less beds, merging services between hospitals, promoting their buddies/network, hiring people to recreate company-like hierarchy where you undermine anyone that is not in your team) the goal of the current government is to cut everything that they can and obviously they would love to have less public hospitals. Not even talking about the building renovations that are near impossible, the medical devices that will never be next-gen and the idea of counting beds rather than patients. Yes it works. it is not efficient. And it is putting immense pressure on doctors that are underpaid, underappreciated by management. I can see where it is going and I think we will be very sad. They want all the bad sides of the american model + the bad sides of the french model. None of the good ones. And then on their business model and powerpoint the picture will look amazing. Just like any BS company tweaking their financials to look great.
gambiting 6y ago
Where the hell do you live in the EU. I had to go to the hospital several times in the last 2 years and the level of care I received in public hospitals(for absolutely free) was great, wouldn't say a bad word for it. My father has been treated for cancer for over 8 years, medicines, operations, hospital stays - all provided without any delay. I'm sorry if you have been wronged by public healthcare at some point, but you're just talking nonsense for the sake of it I feel.
- durnygbur 6y ago
  The experience is nothing like this in Poland. One still pays the contributions.
  - gambiting 6y ago
    I am talking of Poland, I'm Polish myself. My father has been treated at oncological hospitals in few different places and the experience has been very good.
    - durnygbur 6y ago
      We must be living in two different Polands. Me and many acquaintances of mine don't even have GP doctor assigned from public health insurance, that's how hopeless is dealing with them. Nowadays the waiting times are as hopeless as always plus there are exclusively phone consultations. The doctor calls whenever they please and the appointment is void if noone answers. Perhaps your father is a politician, or high ranking person in public administration or public services? I cannot imagine how otherwise one could be satisfied from the healthcare services.
      - gambiting 6y ago
        >>Perhaps your father is a politician, or high ranking person in public administration or public services? Lol, what? I mean, I guess you're trying to imply he got some special treatment, but I assure you he didn't, and neither did I when I needed help. He was a truck driver and then ran a car workshop, then when he got cancer he was under constant care of the oncological hospital in Warsaw. Not only his level of care was very good, the drugs he was getting from NFZ for free are incredibly expensive(look up the cost of Glivec treatment), he was even getting reimbursed for travel to the hospital every time he needed to go - that's all standard NFZ procedure, no VIP treatment. I mean, perhaps you were just unlucky? I have no other explanation.
ornornor 6y ago
I do t think you’ve ever experienced the brutal reality of living in the US: barely any employment insurance compared to the EU, two weeks notice before you lose your job only, just an ambulance ride and seeing an MD in the ER is a few thousand dollars before they even start treating you, getting cancer also means hundreds of thousands of dollars in medical bills (good luck without insurance), 0 days a year vacation prescribed by law, to only pick a few. Oh and free or nearly free education all the way to a masters degree at least. Not to mention other public services like mass transit. Or life expectancy. You’re better off in Europe.
- np- 6y ago
  Pretty much none of this comment is true besides maybe the mass transit thing, which again depends where you live, if you're a dev in the US (as the OP you responded to said is their profession). This almost strikes me as a Reddit-comment-style parody, so maybe I was whooshed.
  - ido 6y ago
    I get all of what the parent comments describes for Europe and more here in Berlin: * hard to get fired and you get generous unemployment benefits if you do. * ambulance rides and medical treatment is free, medication is heavily subsidized. * cancer treatment and twice yearly MRIs afterwards are free (I know this from personal experience unfortunately) * 25 days vacation per year (I think legal minimum is a bit less but never had a job that offered below that) * never owned a car or even a driver's license, been living in Europe since 2005 and have 2 little kids. Not to mention: * 14 months parental leave * >200€ per month per kid, up to age 26(!) unless they start working & earning earlier than that * free education * free childcare from 1 year of age * loads of tenant's protections - from rent control to almost unbreakable rental contracts with no expiry date by default (landlords need a very good reason to throw you out & can't increase rent beyond the rate of inflation) Furthermore we got more or less the same benefits when we lived in Vienna as well & I'm pretty sure this is not unusual for continental western europe. It's true though that in the eastern states you get a lot less. So instead of Europe maybe we should say "wealthy continental western european countries" - if you live in e.g. Bulgaria or Ukraine you don't get many of these benefits and these countries are still in Europe (and Bulgaria is in the EU).
msh 6y ago
I think you are generalizing way too much. While there are underfunded healtcare systems in the EU I dont think its realistic to say in most.

ido 6y ago

I don't know where in the EU you are but I live in Germany and had to have cancer treatment a few years ago & got outstanding care for no cost. Also having two children the amount of support we (and everyone who has kids) get from the state here is excellent.

durnygbur 6y ago
This will last at most only 5-10 years more [1]. Poland, Romania, Bulgaria, Italy, Spain and Greece are brain-drained to the bone already. There is noone to come over. [1] https://www.populationpyramid.net/germany/2020/ https://www.populationpyramid.net/germany/2020/
- ido 6y ago
  I've worked at tech companies since we moved here in 2013 and at least for developers most of the "imported talent" were from non-EU former Soviet countries (Russia, Ukraine, etc), India or Latin America.
- iamlucaswolf 6y ago
  This might be a fair assumption from a birth statistics viewpoint, but completely misses immigration. I met a lot of brilliant people from all over the world during my undergrad at TU Munich; many of them stayed. Google, Apple, Microsoft have expanded rather aggressively over the past years, and the startup scene is growing. Berlin, Hamburg, Frankfurt seem to follow suit. Granted, it's much less likely (and also less politically incentivized) to become a "millionaire employee", but I guess ultimately, the correlation between wealth and wellbeing is simply weaker in (northern) European economies? As long as immigration policies don't change (and why would they? the current model aligns well with lobby incentives), I don't see much reason for this to change. Also, Poland, Romania, Bulgaria, Spain, and Greece have a different political and economic history than Germany, France, Denmark, Sweden, etc.
- luch 6y ago
  Holy shit, I knew from anecdotal evidences that young people from Spain and Italy were "fleeing" their country but the demographics are frankly scary ! I don't know how what the retirement scheme is implemented over there, but if it is generational (young gens pays for older gens) they willy have a BIG problem in 15/20 years ...
  - durnygbur 6y ago
    The population pyramids of Germany, Spain, Italy are interestingly similar while the economies of the latter two are in deep problems. Retirement age in Germany is 67, wait for it. Putting aside the tabloid hysteria I dare to presume that this was one of the main reasons of Brexit. The entire Europe will hiccup.
- eeZah7Ux 6y ago
  This is huge exaggeration and generalization. Some parts of EU are doing very well economically and have very quality of life. Cherry-picking specific countries does not represent the totality.
Cthulhu_ 6y ago
I live in the Netherlands and I pay nearly 150 / month in health insurance, my employer pays another heap, and on top of that I have a mandatory minimal deductible, medication that isn't on a list gets billed extra, and a lot of things are not covered by default (like glasses, physical therapy) or have a max coverage (like dental work).
- em500 6y ago
  The total spending on health care in the Netherlands in 2019 was €510 per person per month[1]. That need to be paid in somehow. [1] https://www.cbs.nl/nl-nl/nieuws/2020/24/zorguitgaven-stegen-in-2019-met-5-2-procent https://www.cbs.nl/nl-nl/nieuws/2020/24/zorguitgaven-stegen-...
- ido 6y ago
  I pay a lot more than you, but I'm ok with it cause it's a % of my wage and it means people much poorer than me get free/cheap healthcare. I'm not familiar with what is covered in the Netherland but here the normal public insurance really does cover a lot.
  - consp 6y ago
    Not just poor people. Kids are insured by the ZVW premie which the employers pay for everyone. They are subscribed on one of the parents insurance but for the basic insurance this is free. Additional insurance can cost money for kids.
    - ido 6y ago
      That's true! And when my wife was home when they were babies all 4 of us were insured on my contribution alone.
- durnygbur 6y ago
  > nearly 150 / month in health insurance, my employer pays another heap This contribution is in line with public health insurance in Poland, which in practice doesn't cover any services and is completely disfunctional. German one which actually delivers is twice as much.

aweb 6y ago

I'm sorry but you're exaggerating quite a lot. Were are you based? In France this is definitely not the case. Public care works and is efficient enough.

durnygbur 6y ago
Poland.
finikytou 6y ago
I wouldn't say france works and is efficient enough. You can see the covid crisis as a revelatory of what doctors and hospital are going trough in france. underfunded, directed by people from business schools looking at profitability (less beds, merging services between hospitals, promoting their buddies/network, hiring people to recreate company-like hierarchy where you undermine anyone that is not in your team) the goal of the current government is to cut everything that they can and obviously they would love to have less public hospitals. Not even talking about the building renovations that are near impossible, the medical devices that will never be next-gen and the idea of counting beds rather than patients. Yes it works. it is not efficient. And it is putting immense pressure on doctors that are underpaid, underappreciated by management. I can see where it is going and I think we will be very sad. They want all the bad sides of the american model + the bad sides of the french model. None of the good ones. And then on their business model and powerpoint the picture will look amazing. Just like any BS company tweaking their financials to look great.

gambiting 6y ago

Where the hell do you live in the EU. I had to go to the hospital several times in the last 2 years and the level of care I received in public hospitals(for absolutely free) was great, wouldn't say a bad word for it. My father has been treated for cancer for over 8 years, medicines, operations, hospital stays - all provided without any delay. I'm sorry if you have been wronged by public healthcare at some point, but you're just talking nonsense for the sake of it I feel.

durnygbur 6y ago
The experience is nothing like this in Poland. One still pays the contributions.
- gambiting 6y ago
  I am talking of Poland, I'm Polish myself. My father has been treated at oncological hospitals in few different places and the experience has been very good.
  - durnygbur 6y ago
    We must be living in two different Polands. Me and many acquaintances of mine don't even have GP doctor assigned from public health insurance, that's how hopeless is dealing with them. Nowadays the waiting times are as hopeless as always plus there are exclusively phone consultations. The doctor calls whenever they please and the appointment is void if noone answers. Perhaps your father is a politician, or high ranking person in public administration or public services? I cannot imagine how otherwise one could be satisfied from the healthcare services.
    - gambiting 6y ago
      >>Perhaps your father is a politician, or high ranking person in public administration or public services? Lol, what? I mean, I guess you're trying to imply he got some special treatment, but I assure you he didn't, and neither did I when I needed help. He was a truck driver and then ran a car workshop, then when he got cancer he was under constant care of the oncological hospital in Warsaw. Not only his level of care was very good, the drugs he was getting from NFZ for free are incredibly expensive(look up the cost of Glivec treatment), he was even getting reimbursed for travel to the hospital every time he needed to go - that's all standard NFZ procedure, no VIP treatment. I mean, perhaps you were just unlucky? I have no other explanation.

ornornor 6y ago

I do t think you’ve ever experienced the brutal reality of living in the US: barely any employment insurance compared to the EU, two weeks notice before you lose your job only, just an ambulance ride and seeing an MD in the ER is a few thousand dollars before they even start treating you, getting cancer also means hundreds of thousands of dollars in medical bills (good luck without insurance), 0 days a year vacation prescribed by law, to only pick a few. Oh and free or nearly free education all the way to a masters degree at least. Not to mention other public services like mass transit. Or life expectancy. You’re better off in Europe.

np- 6y ago
Pretty much none of this comment is true besides maybe the mass transit thing, which again depends where you live, if you're a dev in the US (as the OP you responded to said is their profession). This almost strikes me as a Reddit-comment-style parody, so maybe I was whooshed.
- ido 6y ago
  I get all of what the parent comments describes for Europe and more here in Berlin: * hard to get fired and you get generous unemployment benefits if you do. * ambulance rides and medical treatment is free, medication is heavily subsidized. * cancer treatment and twice yearly MRIs afterwards are free (I know this from personal experience unfortunately) * 25 days vacation per year (I think legal minimum is a bit less but never had a job that offered below that) * never owned a car or even a driver's license, been living in Europe since 2005 and have 2 little kids. Not to mention: * 14 months parental leave * >200€ per month per kid, up to age 26(!) unless they start working & earning earlier than that * free education * free childcare from 1 year of age * loads of tenant's protections - from rent control to almost unbreakable rental contracts with no expiry date by default (landlords need a very good reason to throw you out & can't increase rent beyond the rate of inflation) Furthermore we got more or less the same benefits when we lived in Vienna as well & I'm pretty sure this is not unusual for continental western europe. It's true though that in the eastern states you get a lot less. So instead of Europe maybe we should say "wealthy continental western european countries" - if you live in e.g. Bulgaria or Ukraine you don't get many of these benefits and these countries are still in Europe (and Bulgaria is in the EU).

msh 6y ago

I think you are generalizing way too much. While there are underfunded healtcare systems in the EU I dont think its realistic to say in most.