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> Would you like to be more rational? Of course you would. Personally I'm not jumping on that "of course". Rational thinking only works for clearly limited sco

> Would you like to be more rational? Of course you would. Personally I'm not jumping on that "of course". Rational thinking only works for clearly limited scope problems where you have all the data. Otherwise even perfect rational thinking - an unattainable ideal - fails because of "garbage in garbage out". Life in general being far from a clearly defined set of problems where you have all the data. > By “mindfulness”—a feature of Buddhism for thousands of years, and a subject of scientific investigation for a few decades—most people mean a mental state you can be in. What/where are the results from those thousands years of mindfulness? If the practice has an impact surely we should be able to see some things at a society level, or at least in some individuals who are particularly good at it.

lmm 6y ago
> What/where are the results from those thousands years of mindfulness? If the practice has an impact surely we should be able to see some things at a society level, or at least in some individuals who are particularly good at it. I've seen it argued that the main value is avoiding the failure modes that lead to depression, and the result is much lower rates of depression in those societies.
weberer 6y ago
Let's turn the question around then. Would you like to be less rational? I doubt anyone would say yes to that.
- trabant00 6y ago
  Being too rational - over thinking, ruminating, are real things. I think more and more people would answer yes. "Rational = good" is the opinion of just one philosophy - the Enlightenment. And it has been rightfully criticized by all the other philosophy schools that came after it.
  - ben_w 6y ago
    Overthinking can be a problem, though I think this is only because of one of our other biases: we mistake how often we think about something for how likely it is to actually happen, the “availability heuristic”. I get the impression you’re thinking of and arguing against the sort of pseudo-rationality portrayed on TV and film: https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/zuJmtSqt3TsnBTYyu/communicating-rationality-to-the-public-julia-galef-s-the https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/zuJmtSqt3TsnBTYyu/communicat...
  - hntrader 6y ago
    "Being too rational - over thinking, ruminating" Why is overthinking and ruminating an extension of rationality? Overthinking is a departure from rationality rather than an example of rationality, and ruminating is a psychological problem stemming from anxiety.
    - coldtea 6y ago
      >Why is overthinking and ruminating an extension of rationality? Because it's a trait will all too often see associated with people touting their "rationality"... >Overthinking is a departure from rationality rather than an example of rationality If you redifine rationality to exclude overthinking then yes, but you're cheating. You can be totally rational and overthinking, with perfectly good, all the more elaborate arguments...
- coldtea 6y ago
  Anybody who feels too nerdy/well actually/cold/disconected because of his too much thinking, everybody who sees that they miss the holistic forest for rationaly thinking about the trees, everybody who destroyed their life because of their higher IQ given ability to rationalize all kinds of BS with smart arguments, would answer yes...
ben_w 6y ago
> Rational thinking only works for clearly limited scope problems where you have all the data. Otherwise even perfect rational thinking - an unattainable ideal - fails because of "garbage in garbage out". Life in general being far from a clearly defined set of problems where you have all the data. Not so. Rationality isn’t just about perfect knowledge situations (e.g. like chess), it’s also about maximising your chances of success — or your expected utility, or whatever your goal is — based on the information you do have (e.g. in poker). This is different from the GIN=GOUT problem; if you think you’re playing poker but you’re actually hallucinating wildly while negotiating an international trade deal, things will go badly no matter how rational the rest of your thought processes are.
- trabant00 6y ago
  Poker is still a very limited scoped problem with fixed rules. Not having perfect knowledge is not the issue. Think about more "human" problems. Let's start with something very simple as far as life questions go: should you play poker? Try to solve that with rational thinking. GIN=GOUT can be a lot more subtle than being mad on mushrooms. One simple unknown detail (in that international trade deal the others are secretly working against you, the deck of cards is fixed in that poker game) makes all your rational actions lead you to disaster.
  - ben_w 6y ago
    > One simple unknown detail (in that international trade deal the others are secretly working against you, the deck of cards is fixed in that poker game) makes all your rational actions lead you to disaster. The rational things to do in the trade deal example are: 1: have an intelligence agency so you don’t get surprised by such plans 2: have a backup plan for how to deal with the inevitable time when someone else’s interests are anti-aligned with your own A rationalist playing poker with a dodgy deck will notice this by virtue of the improbable happening too often.
  - weberer 6y ago
    >should you play poker? Try to solve that with rational thinking Rational thoughts: - I've played with these guys before and I know I'm more likely to win than lose. So it would be in my favor to play. - I've lost more than I've won in the past, but the bets are small and these people are fun to hang around so as long as I don't come out more than $20 behind tonight, its worth the time - I've lost more than I've won in the past and I have no connections with these people. I shouldn't play - There's no money involved in this match, and I enjoy poker. So why not? Irrational thoughts: - I've lost more than I've won in the past, so I'm sure to win this time so the "luck" in the universe evens out - Some sort of fortune told me I'd have good luck today, so it would be stupid not to play - Gambling has put me in severe debt in the past, but I'm just going to push that negative thought out of my mind since its unpleasant to think about. Let's play
deleted 6y ago
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WildParser 6y ago
A few patterns about rationality I have seen a lot recently: False rationality - People claim to be rational while touting some dogma they learned somewhere. Not even looking at any data. And when given data or counter-examples they just ignore it. Anti-Rational - People claim that life is uncertain and data is garbage - while in fact there is a lot of good data available - and drawing conclusions is not even difficult. I don't think the problem is with rationality. It feels more like rationality is going down because psychological pathologies (narcissm, cargo-cults, dogmas) are taking over.
alecst 6y ago
> What/where are the results from those thousands years of mindfulness? If the practice has an impact surely we should be able to see some things at a society level, or at least in some individuals who are particularly good at it. Oh man, I can't tell you how much it hurts me to hear this. But I get where you're coming from. It's hard because with mindfulness and meditation there's nothing to sell and nothing to show for it. All you have is your own inner peace. And you can't just give it away, you have to teach how to get there, and it's a long and arduous process that most people just give up on. So I guess what I'm saying is I take issue with "surely." It's not actually true. The practice has a major impact -- an earth-shattering, mind-expanding impact on one's life -- but because of the inability to "prove" it works or "make" someone do it, people tend to write it off. If you're more interested in what mindfulness is about you can check out the book The Mind Illuminated. It's an alright book, written for the serious secular meditator, (even though the author isn't secular.) There's also Mindfulness in Plain English. Here's to hoping that you're able to see past your skepticism and learn a little bit about these potentially life-changing tools. All the best man.
- deleted 6y ago
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lmm 6y ago

> What/where are the results from those thousands years of mindfulness? If the practice has an impact surely we should be able to see some things at a society level, or at least in some individuals who are particularly good at it. I've seen it argued that the main value is avoiding the failure modes that lead to depression, and the result is much lower rates of depression in those societies.

weberer 6y ago

Let's turn the question around then. Would you like to be less rational? I doubt anyone would say yes to that.

trabant00 6y ago
Being too rational - over thinking, ruminating, are real things. I think more and more people would answer yes. "Rational = good" is the opinion of just one philosophy - the Enlightenment. And it has been rightfully criticized by all the other philosophy schools that came after it.
- ben_w 6y ago
  Overthinking can be a problem, though I think this is only because of one of our other biases: we mistake how often we think about something for how likely it is to actually happen, the “availability heuristic”. I get the impression you’re thinking of and arguing against the sort of pseudo-rationality portrayed on TV and film: https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/zuJmtSqt3TsnBTYyu/communicating-rationality-to-the-public-julia-galef-s-the https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/zuJmtSqt3TsnBTYyu/communicat...
- hntrader 6y ago
  "Being too rational - over thinking, ruminating" Why is overthinking and ruminating an extension of rationality? Overthinking is a departure from rationality rather than an example of rationality, and ruminating is a psychological problem stemming from anxiety.
  - coldtea 6y ago
    >Why is overthinking and ruminating an extension of rationality? Because it's a trait will all too often see associated with people touting their "rationality"... >Overthinking is a departure from rationality rather than an example of rationality If you redifine rationality to exclude overthinking then yes, but you're cheating. You can be totally rational and overthinking, with perfectly good, all the more elaborate arguments...
coldtea 6y ago
Anybody who feels too nerdy/well actually/cold/disconected because of his too much thinking, everybody who sees that they miss the holistic forest for rationaly thinking about the trees, everybody who destroyed their life because of their higher IQ given ability to rationalize all kinds of BS with smart arguments, would answer yes...

ben_w 6y ago

> Rational thinking only works for clearly limited scope problems where you have all the data. Otherwise even perfect rational thinking - an unattainable ideal - fails because of "garbage in garbage out". Life in general being far from a clearly defined set of problems where you have all the data. Not so. Rationality isn’t just about perfect knowledge situations (e.g. like chess), it’s also about maximising your chances of success — or your expected utility, or whatever your goal is — based on the information you do have (e.g. in poker). This is different from the GIN=GOUT problem; if you think you’re playing poker but you’re actually hallucinating wildly while negotiating an international trade deal, things will go badly no matter how rational the rest of your thought processes are.

trabant00 6y ago
Poker is still a very limited scoped problem with fixed rules. Not having perfect knowledge is not the issue. Think about more "human" problems. Let's start with something very simple as far as life questions go: should you play poker? Try to solve that with rational thinking. GIN=GOUT can be a lot more subtle than being mad on mushrooms. One simple unknown detail (in that international trade deal the others are secretly working against you, the deck of cards is fixed in that poker game) makes all your rational actions lead you to disaster.
- ben_w 6y ago
  > One simple unknown detail (in that international trade deal the others are secretly working against you, the deck of cards is fixed in that poker game) makes all your rational actions lead you to disaster. The rational things to do in the trade deal example are: 1: have an intelligence agency so you don’t get surprised by such plans 2: have a backup plan for how to deal with the inevitable time when someone else’s interests are anti-aligned with your own A rationalist playing poker with a dodgy deck will notice this by virtue of the improbable happening too often.
- weberer 6y ago
  >should you play poker? Try to solve that with rational thinking Rational thoughts: - I've played with these guys before and I know I'm more likely to win than lose. So it would be in my favor to play. - I've lost more than I've won in the past, but the bets are small and these people are fun to hang around so as long as I don't come out more than $20 behind tonight, its worth the time - I've lost more than I've won in the past and I have no connections with these people. I shouldn't play - There's no money involved in this match, and I enjoy poker. So why not? Irrational thoughts: - I've lost more than I've won in the past, so I'm sure to win this time so the "luck" in the universe evens out - Some sort of fortune told me I'd have good luck today, so it would be stupid not to play - Gambling has put me in severe debt in the past, but I'm just going to push that negative thought out of my mind since its unpleasant to think about. Let's play

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

WildParser 6y ago

A few patterns about rationality I have seen a lot recently: False rationality - People claim to be rational while touting some dogma they learned somewhere. Not even looking at any data. And when given data or counter-examples they just ignore it. Anti-Rational - People claim that life is uncertain and data is garbage - while in fact there is a lot of good data available - and drawing conclusions is not even difficult. I don't think the problem is with rationality. It feels more like rationality is going down because psychological pathologies (narcissm, cargo-cults, dogmas) are taking over.

alecst 6y ago

> What/where are the results from those thousands years of mindfulness? If the practice has an impact surely we should be able to see some things at a society level, or at least in some individuals who are particularly good at it. Oh man, I can't tell you how much it hurts me to hear this. But I get where you're coming from. It's hard because with mindfulness and meditation there's nothing to sell and nothing to show for it. All you have is your own inner peace. And you can't just give it away, you have to teach how to get there, and it's a long and arduous process that most people just give up on. So I guess what I'm saying is I take issue with "surely." It's not actually true. The practice has a major impact -- an earth-shattering, mind-expanding impact on one's life -- but because of the inability to "prove" it works or "make" someone do it, people tend to write it off. If you're more interested in what mindfulness is about you can check out the book The Mind Illuminated. It's an alright book, written for the serious secular meditator, (even though the author isn't secular.) There's also Mindfulness in Plain English. Here's to hoping that you're able to see past your skepticism and learn a little bit about these potentially life-changing tools. All the best man.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]