4 ms·

The only thing you know that is likely to be true is that someone got fired from Amazon. From the article: > The warnings about privacy and compliance failure

by papaf 6y ago

The only thing you know that is likely to be true is that someone got fired from Amazon. From the article: > The warnings about privacy and compliance failures at Amazon come from three former high-level information security employees — one EU-based and two from the U.S. So 3 employees involved with security and not 1 employee. Also, they were pushed out AFTER alerting about security issues.

ekianjo 6y ago
> So 3 employees involved with security and not 1 employee. Also, they were pushed out AFTER alerting about security issues. How much credibility do you put in such testimonies though? Especially if everyone is a "anonymous source", you can basically invent just about anything and publish it and pretend for it to be a genuine article without any fact under the hood.
- ashkankiani 6y ago
  How much credibility do you put in Amazon's?
  - ActorNightly 6y ago
    Look at it from a heuristic point of view. A corporation is composed of people who are paid to do a specific job, with an interest in keeping said job by making decisions and doing tasks towards a central goal, a corporation generally behaves vastly more rationally for any given scenario. Furthermore, the particular structure of the corporation which determines the actions directly affects the corporation survival, where historically poorly structured corporations that end up with scandals tend to last a very short time. So with Amazon, considering it has survived for quite some time, and additionally with all the optics it has on it from any political entity or person trying to score popular points by being "anti-big-corporation", Id argue that this decision to fire was likely made after much collaboration with higher level execs and legal involved, well understanding what the consequences would be, including attention at reviewing their privacy compliance.
- sjwalter 6y ago
  This is a really good point and an example of how real investigative journalism is not present in this story. Was the journalist approached by a co-ordinated group of three former Apple high-level security execs in order for them to Greenwald&Snowden-style inform the public, themselves openly inviting massive career risk (even when "anonymous"), with real skin in the game and thus with real credibility worthy of maybe oh even up to government investigation? Or did this journalist have a python script that emailed every single public address of all ex-employees of every BigTech corp, looking for responses, robotically fishing out clickbait headlines that harbour the feintest enough outline of what integrity might look like? Obviously, there's a wide range between these two extremes, including Real Investigative Journalism that oftentimes co-ordinates the investigation itself. But, that is extinct, and since provenance is not established well in the article, my default is, assume the worst, in every case. Yes, literally, bots wrote this article, it means exactly nothing. Fugazi.
- crummy 6y ago
  Presumably if you trust the reputation of the newspaper or journalist writing the article, you trust the testimony.
  - VSerge 6y ago
    Thank you, this is exactly it. And it's not either like anyone should consider a newspaper report the final word on the issue, but there is a reasonable amount of information presented here, and it should warrant an official investigation into Amazon's data practices at the very least.
- croes 6y ago
  You get sued, because such claims are business damaging.
  - rurban 6y ago
    Good, because then you can verify your claims in court. Which Amazon will not be able to counter. So they will fear the light. Like their friends, secret services doing their illegal things, but they are protected by "National Security" claims, Amazon not.
    - croes 6y ago
      That's why I think the claims are not completely bogus otherwise Amamzon would have sued immediately.
      - rurban 6y ago
        Of course they are not bogus.
    - MrDresden 6y ago
      So you would rather that whistleblowers would only be given attention by media outlets if they are publicly outed alongside the revelations that they usually bring? Tell me, how well did that go for Edward Snowden and Chelsea Manning?
      - ctvo 6y ago
        Edward Snowden wasn’t a whistleblower. He stole US intelligence material as a contractor, leaked it to the press and fled the country to avoid facing criminal charges. The whistleblowing process is not break the law then claim whistleblower protection. You report wrongdoing to a specific, independent body and are offered protection against retribution. A better example of the system is the whistleblower on Trump’s first impeachment, who is still protected under law and still can’t have their identity revealed publicly. Edit: To clarify, this only applies to the federal government. I only bring it up since you named two individuals who were associated with the federal government. With Amazon and other private companies, leaking to the press is effective and encouraged.
- devindotcom 6y ago
  Journalists do check the credentials of the people they include in articles like this. They don't just take randos at their word. These people are anonymous to you but not to the journalist. If you simply don't believe the writer that's a totally different issue - but people at major outlets like Politico don't just invent sources and stories out of whole cloth like you suggest.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - ctvo 6y ago
    But they do lie, and sometimes we learn about it and they get fired. Pyramid of trust: - cited sources - anonymous sources - off the record sources
- patrick451 6y ago
  You're getting downvoted a lot, but these days I too place very little confidence in a story that cites anonymous sources, regardless of whatever supposed gravitas the publication is supposed to carry.
  - rualca 6y ago
    Honest question: where do you place the goalpost with regards to news on corporate malpractice? If not from whistleblowers, which have a long track record of being persecuted extensively and subjected to very personal and very damaging retaliatory attacks if not for anonymity, then in your eyes what warrants questions?

by papaf 6y ago

ekianjo 6y ago

> So 3 employees involved with security and not 1 employee. Also, they were pushed out AFTER alerting about security issues. How much credibility do you put in such testimonies though? Especially if everyone is a "anonymous source", you can basically invent just about anything and publish it and pretend for it to be a genuine article without any fact under the hood.

ashkankiani 6y ago
How much credibility do you put in Amazon's?
- ActorNightly 6y ago
  Look at it from a heuristic point of view. A corporation is composed of people who are paid to do a specific job, with an interest in keeping said job by making decisions and doing tasks towards a central goal, a corporation generally behaves vastly more rationally for any given scenario. Furthermore, the particular structure of the corporation which determines the actions directly affects the corporation survival, where historically poorly structured corporations that end up with scandals tend to last a very short time. So with Amazon, considering it has survived for quite some time, and additionally with all the optics it has on it from any political entity or person trying to score popular points by being "anti-big-corporation", Id argue that this decision to fire was likely made after much collaboration with higher level execs and legal involved, well understanding what the consequences would be, including attention at reviewing their privacy compliance.
sjwalter 6y ago
This is a really good point and an example of how real investigative journalism is not present in this story. Was the journalist approached by a co-ordinated group of three former Apple high-level security execs in order for them to Greenwald&Snowden-style inform the public, themselves openly inviting massive career risk (even when "anonymous"), with real skin in the game and thus with real credibility worthy of maybe oh even up to government investigation? Or did this journalist have a python script that emailed every single public address of all ex-employees of every BigTech corp, looking for responses, robotically fishing out clickbait headlines that harbour the feintest enough outline of what integrity might look like? Obviously, there's a wide range between these two extremes, including Real Investigative Journalism that oftentimes co-ordinates the investigation itself. But, that is extinct, and since provenance is not established well in the article, my default is, assume the worst, in every case. Yes, literally, bots wrote this article, it means exactly nothing. Fugazi.
crummy 6y ago
Presumably if you trust the reputation of the newspaper or journalist writing the article, you trust the testimony.
- VSerge 6y ago
  Thank you, this is exactly it. And it's not either like anyone should consider a newspaper report the final word on the issue, but there is a reasonable amount of information presented here, and it should warrant an official investigation into Amazon's data practices at the very least.
croes 6y ago
You get sued, because such claims are business damaging.
- rurban 6y ago
  Good, because then you can verify your claims in court. Which Amazon will not be able to counter. So they will fear the light. Like their friends, secret services doing their illegal things, but they are protected by "National Security" claims, Amazon not.
  - croes 6y ago
    That's why I think the claims are not completely bogus otherwise Amamzon would have sued immediately.
    - rurban 6y ago
      Of course they are not bogus.
  - MrDresden 6y ago
    So you would rather that whistleblowers would only be given attention by media outlets if they are publicly outed alongside the revelations that they usually bring? Tell me, how well did that go for Edward Snowden and Chelsea Manning?
    - ctvo 6y ago
      Edward Snowden wasn’t a whistleblower. He stole US intelligence material as a contractor, leaked it to the press and fled the country to avoid facing criminal charges. The whistleblowing process is not break the law then claim whistleblower protection. You report wrongdoing to a specific, independent body and are offered protection against retribution. A better example of the system is the whistleblower on Trump’s first impeachment, who is still protected under law and still can’t have their identity revealed publicly. Edit: To clarify, this only applies to the federal government. I only bring it up since you named two individuals who were associated with the federal government. With Amazon and other private companies, leaking to the press is effective and encouraged.
devindotcom 6y ago
Journalists do check the credentials of the people they include in articles like this. They don't just take randos at their word. These people are anonymous to you but not to the journalist. If you simply don't believe the writer that's a totally different issue - but people at major outlets like Politico don't just invent sources and stories out of whole cloth like you suggest.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- ctvo 6y ago
  But they do lie, and sometimes we learn about it and they get fired. Pyramid of trust: - cited sources - anonymous sources - off the record sources
patrick451 6y ago
You're getting downvoted a lot, but these days I too place very little confidence in a story that cites anonymous sources, regardless of whatever supposed gravitas the publication is supposed to carry.
- rualca 6y ago
  Honest question: where do you place the goalpost with regards to news on corporate malpractice? If not from whistleblowers, which have a long track record of being persecuted extensively and subjected to very personal and very damaging retaliatory attacks if not for anonymity, then in your eyes what warrants questions?