3 ms·

I am well-aware of these. The issue is the joint-packaging. If we went hard on Microsoft for packaging IE and WMP into Windows, we should go equally ballistic

I am well-aware of these. The issue is the joint-packaging. If we went hard on Microsoft for packaging IE and WMP into Windows, we should go equally ballistic about iMessage and SMS being fused in together. They should be broken up.

Karunamon 6y ago
We didn't "go hard on" Microsoft for mere bundling of basic tools like media viewers and web browsers. It was because they were using that dominant position (which is perfectly fine to have) to behave anticompetitively (which is not).
- purpmint008 6y ago
  > "behave anticompetitively" What is Apple doing when it bundles iMessage and SMS together? Deception and anti-competitive behavior, that's what!
  - kergonath 6y ago
    How so? What is their nefarious plan and how do they go about it? If you are the one seeing the truth and you want to be taken seriously you need to do better than just throw around words like “monopoly” and “anti-competitive” with no justification whatsoever.
    - purpmint008 6y ago
      Bundling of iMessage and SMS = reduction in competition by integration.
      - kergonath 6y ago
        I can read, and you’ve already written that. But there are logical bits missing between your premise and your conclusion. Is there any measurable effect? Is say WhatsApp adoption rate significantly lower on iOS because of this? How much more anticompetitive is it than just bundling a SMS app with every phone? Anything a company does to improve its market share is a reduction of competition, the threshold for anticompetitive behaviour is higher than that. Not saying Apple never does anything anticompetitive (they do), but iMessage is a very stupid hill to die on.
        purpmint008 6y ago
        How about the Apple Music store being embedded into the default Music App? Blatantly anti-competitive against Spotify.
        kergonath 6y ago
        Right, but that wasn’t the point you were making. I wasn’t arguing that Apple was never anti-competitive.
        purpmint008 6y ago
        That is the point I was making. Bundling by a platform seller/maker should be regulated.
      - Karunamon 6y ago
        Integration by itself is not anticompetitive. Going back to the Microsoft example, Microsoft got into trouble, not because they were bundling a web browser with an OS (which would be stupid to not have), but because they were forbidding OEMs to include any other browser on pain of revoking their agreements. That is anticompetitive. If Apple were forbidding the installation of WhatsApp because it competes with iMessage, that would be the most direct equivalent to what Microsoft was sanctioned for. Anticompetitive behavior is a legal term with a specific definition, it does not apply to software that decreases a competitor's potential marketshare only by way of doing something a competitor could be doing on their own.

Karunamon 6y ago

We didn't "go hard on" Microsoft for mere bundling of basic tools like media viewers and web browsers. It was because they were using that dominant position (which is perfectly fine to have) to behave anticompetitively (which is not).

purpmint008 6y ago
> "behave anticompetitively" What is Apple doing when it bundles iMessage and SMS together? Deception and anti-competitive behavior, that's what!
- kergonath 6y ago
  How so? What is their nefarious plan and how do they go about it? If you are the one seeing the truth and you want to be taken seriously you need to do better than just throw around words like “monopoly” and “anti-competitive” with no justification whatsoever.
  - purpmint008 6y ago
    Bundling of iMessage and SMS = reduction in competition by integration.
    - kergonath 6y ago
      I can read, and you’ve already written that. But there are logical bits missing between your premise and your conclusion. Is there any measurable effect? Is say WhatsApp adoption rate significantly lower on iOS because of this? How much more anticompetitive is it than just bundling a SMS app with every phone? Anything a company does to improve its market share is a reduction of competition, the threshold for anticompetitive behaviour is higher than that. Not saying Apple never does anything anticompetitive (they do), but iMessage is a very stupid hill to die on.
      - purpmint008 6y ago
        How about the Apple Music store being embedded into the default Music App? Blatantly anti-competitive against Spotify.
        kergonath 6y ago
        Right, but that wasn’t the point you were making. I wasn’t arguing that Apple was never anti-competitive.
        purpmint008 6y ago
        That is the point I was making. Bundling by a platform seller/maker should be regulated.
    - Karunamon 6y ago
      Integration by itself is not anticompetitive. Going back to the Microsoft example, Microsoft got into trouble, not because they were bundling a web browser with an OS (which would be stupid to not have), but because they were forbidding OEMs to include any other browser on pain of revoking their agreements. That is anticompetitive. If Apple were forbidding the installation of WhatsApp because it competes with iMessage, that would be the most direct equivalent to what Microsoft was sanctioned for. Anticompetitive behavior is a legal term with a specific definition, it does not apply to software that decreases a competitor's potential marketshare only by way of doing something a competitor could be doing on their own.