6 ms·

I wonder what the fallout from folks like Instapaper and Tap Tap Tap will be. It seems kind of shady for Apple to say Tap Tap Tap's Camera+ couldn't have volum

by ben1040 15y ago

I wonder what the fallout from folks like Instapaper and Tap Tap Tap will be. It seems kind of shady for Apple to say Tap Tap Tap's Camera+ couldn't have volume button as a shutter (because it was a UX rule violation), then six months later implement that feature right into iOS.

headhuntermdk 15y ago
"Shady" is a much nicer word than I would have used..
Pewpewarrows 15y ago
Welcome to development on a closed system and platform (iOS). Sure, it has its fair share of advantages, but then you also have to deal with shenanigans like this.
- MatthewPhillips 15y ago
  Being closed isn't relevant here. If Ubuntu built this feature into the OS the same thing would happen to 3rd parties. The lesson is about hitching your wagon to one platform. Marco has been an outspoken "iOS only" developer and part of me wants to see him eat crow for taking that position. But that's not fair, at the end of the day he's a smart guy and he'll either adjust or come up with another killer idea. He made the smart play at the right time, but all good things come to an end.
  - tptacek 15y ago
    What does this have to do with him being iOS-only? If he build iP for Android, wouldn't the overwhelming majority of his revenue would still come from iOS, and be just as threatened?
    - MatthewPhillips 15y ago
      They would still be threatened, but less so, because being multi-platform is a feature that differentiates from Apple's. I'm pretty sure Read it Later isn't sweating as much about this, because they have the single best Android app and the single best Web app of this category. They also have a very good iPhone and iPad app that some iOS-only users will have a less of an interest in. But for others they can sell on larger availability than what Apple offers.
      - tptacek 15y ago
        I don't think that's how it works. At the end of the day, what matters is his revenue graph. If almost all his revenue comres from iOS, and Reading List muddies the water enough to cut into that, the "cross platform" checkbox isn't going to save him, because it's not relevant to the majority of people who pay him. I don't think iP is doomed, for what it's worth; I just don't think this is the answer.
        MatthewPhillips 15y ago
        Almost all of his revenue comes from iOS because he almost exclusively develops for iOS. How much this stings is directly proportionate to how much he's invested into this one platform; in his case it's near 100%. In Evernote's case, they could (if they were in this position) take the blow, pivot a little if necessary, and continue moving forward.
        tptacek 15y ago
        The subtext here is that people with cross-platform apps tend to report that the majority of their revenue comes from iOS, so that comment isn't really responsive.
- rimantas 15y ago
  How much wait till some open platform pays $2.5 billion to developers?
itg 15y ago
You can never make everyone happy. Don't include enough new features, and get complaints that your doing nothing new; add new stuff, then complaints about stepping over toes of developers with similar apps.
- martythemaniak 15y ago
  Integrating features from apps is a bit of an asshole move, but at least everyone does it. They pulled that app and threatened the devs because it hacked the buttons. You don't see the difference?
  - tptacek 15y ago
    Not really. I think everyone knows, whether they want to admit it or not, that Apple gets to say what all the hardware buttons do. To what other end would Apple do anything with that authority other than to benefit Apple? This wasn't some random feature that Apple capriciously decided wasn't allowed. It's not like they told Marco, "you're not allowed to make, save, and sync readable versions of web articles". The application you're talking about changed the behavior of the hardware buttons on the phone. Nobody was really surprised that Apple objected to that.
    - wnight 15y ago
      Users who liked the feature might have been a bit surprised. It's not like the app randomly mucked with the UI, it did precisely what the user requested - nobody needed to be saved.
martythemaniak 15y ago
They are a bunch of assholes. I wonder what all the people defending Apple at the time ("it's not right to hijack the buttons! How dare they presume to ship such hacks to uesrs!") have to say now? Probably something about how brilliant Apple is...
guywithabike 15y ago
Marco (Instapaper) has said a number of times on his 5 by 5 podcast that he thinks Reading List either wont affect him much, or it will be a net positive (in terms of sales for him). I think he's correct in believing that Reading List will be a good gateway drug for the people who have never heard of Instapaper but will soon get hooked on the idea and potentially look for a more powerful version of the same tool. What's "shady" about Apple listening to criticism and allowing the hardware shutter button? Would you rather that they stuck to their original position?
- swilliams 15y ago
  I don't think he realized that Reading List was going to be on iOS too. Here's his exact response during the keynote: https://twitter.com/#!/marcoarment/status/77796293510037504 https://twitter.com/#!/marcoarment/status/77796293510037504
  - GHFigs 15y ago
    https://twitter.com/#!/marcoarment/status/77799506602762241 https://twitter.com/#!/marcoarment/status/77799506602762241 Glad I've invested in social and editorial features. Not dead yet!
- btucker 15y ago
  It seems Marco's views have shifted somewhat after seeing the demo: https://twitter.com/#!/marcoarment/status/77796293510037504 https://twitter.com/#!/marcoarment/status/77796293510037504 I think Instapaper will still be very successful. He may need to raise the price & focus on a smaller "Pro" user-base, though.
msbarnett 15y ago
So what's the solution here? To me the outcry over this seems pretty contradictory given the general antipathy around here towards software patents. Either ideas are something that an individual can own and control and others are forbidden to use without permission, or everybody is free to implement them and innovate around them. Is Marco going to have to do some work now to differentiate himself from Reading List? Totally. But is that a bad thing? He was no more entitled to a competition-free perpetual business model than the Record Labels or Movie Studios or Banking Industry or any other perennial target around here. Marco is a smart and skilled guy and there's no way this is going to kill him off unless he willingly lets it.
- nathanb 15y ago
  I agree completely; you can't have it both ways. However, the point in the OP about Camera+ seems a bit more legit. Rejecting an app for doing X and then doing X yourself in the next release seems like a huge double-standard, and where there are double standards there is foothold for allegations of anti-competitive behavior. That said, however, the difference between me (sitting in a cubicle typing this) and the creative forces behind Instapaper and Camera+ is (hopefully) that where I see small developers being turned into digital sharecroppers by a dictatorial corporation, they see an opportunity to differentiate themselves from the stock offering by excelling in the very specific area they're focusing on.
  - alanfalcon 15y ago
    Actually, the Camera+ developers filed a feature request and asked Apple to add the volume-button-as-shutter feature. See: http://taptaptap.com/blog/cameraplus-volumesnap-rejected/ http://taptaptap.com/blog/cameraplus-volumesnap-rejected/ So I imagine they're pretty happy with this development.
- wnight 15y ago
  Remember Ballmer chanting "Developers! Developers! ..."? Well, here Apple is saying "Screw the developers". Sure, they have a right to do this, and perhaps an obligations, but the developers put out business without warning probably won't keep developing for Apple. Over time that will work to reduce developer uptake, and thus app selection on iOS, which is why they perhaps should have chosen to somehow lessen the blow to unlucky developers.
lukifer 15y ago
I really feel for the folks at Red Pop today: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/786496402/red-pop http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/786496402/red-pop
- anko 15y ago
  that was my first thought too - i was going to buy one of these today, now I think I'll wait until ios5 and see if i still want it.
alanh 15y ago
Oh, please. I am not buying it. The selling point of iOS is the user experience, and part of that experience was that hardware buttons act predictably, in every context. Was. Realizing how important the camera has become, they are reprioritizing the photo experience above the universally-consistent-hardware experience. If you don’t think this topic was internally debated over and over at Apple, long before TapTapTap submitted their app, you don’t get Apple.

by ben1040 15y ago

headhuntermdk 15y ago

"Shady" is a much nicer word than I would have used..

Pewpewarrows 15y ago

Welcome to development on a closed system and platform (iOS). Sure, it has its fair share of advantages, but then you also have to deal with shenanigans like this.

MatthewPhillips 15y ago
Being closed isn't relevant here. If Ubuntu built this feature into the OS the same thing would happen to 3rd parties. The lesson is about hitching your wagon to one platform. Marco has been an outspoken "iOS only" developer and part of me wants to see him eat crow for taking that position. But that's not fair, at the end of the day he's a smart guy and he'll either adjust or come up with another killer idea. He made the smart play at the right time, but all good things come to an end.
- tptacek 15y ago
  What does this have to do with him being iOS-only? If he build iP for Android, wouldn't the overwhelming majority of his revenue would still come from iOS, and be just as threatened?
  - MatthewPhillips 15y ago
    They would still be threatened, but less so, because being multi-platform is a feature that differentiates from Apple's. I'm pretty sure Read it Later isn't sweating as much about this, because they have the single best Android app and the single best Web app of this category. They also have a very good iPhone and iPad app that some iOS-only users will have a less of an interest in. But for others they can sell on larger availability than what Apple offers.
    - tptacek 15y ago
      I don't think that's how it works. At the end of the day, what matters is his revenue graph. If almost all his revenue comres from iOS, and Reading List muddies the water enough to cut into that, the "cross platform" checkbox isn't going to save him, because it's not relevant to the majority of people who pay him. I don't think iP is doomed, for what it's worth; I just don't think this is the answer.
      - MatthewPhillips 15y ago
        Almost all of his revenue comes from iOS because he almost exclusively develops for iOS. How much this stings is directly proportionate to how much he's invested into this one platform; in his case it's near 100%. In Evernote's case, they could (if they were in this position) take the blow, pivot a little if necessary, and continue moving forward.
        tptacek 15y ago
        The subtext here is that people with cross-platform apps tend to report that the majority of their revenue comes from iOS, so that comment isn't really responsive.
rimantas 15y ago
How much wait till some open platform pays $2.5 billion to developers?

itg 15y ago

You can never make everyone happy. Don't include enough new features, and get complaints that your doing nothing new; add new stuff, then complaints about stepping over toes of developers with similar apps.

martythemaniak 15y ago
Integrating features from apps is a bit of an asshole move, but at least everyone does it. They pulled that app and threatened the devs because it hacked the buttons. You don't see the difference?
- tptacek 15y ago
  Not really. I think everyone knows, whether they want to admit it or not, that Apple gets to say what all the hardware buttons do. To what other end would Apple do anything with that authority other than to benefit Apple? This wasn't some random feature that Apple capriciously decided wasn't allowed. It's not like they told Marco, "you're not allowed to make, save, and sync readable versions of web articles". The application you're talking about changed the behavior of the hardware buttons on the phone. Nobody was really surprised that Apple objected to that.
  - wnight 15y ago
    Users who liked the feature might have been a bit surprised. It's not like the app randomly mucked with the UI, it did precisely what the user requested - nobody needed to be saved.

martythemaniak 15y ago

They are a bunch of assholes. I wonder what all the people defending Apple at the time ("it's not right to hijack the buttons! How dare they presume to ship such hacks to uesrs!") have to say now? Probably something about how brilliant Apple is...

guywithabike 15y ago

Marco (Instapaper) has said a number of times on his 5 by 5 podcast that he thinks Reading List either wont affect him much, or it will be a net positive (in terms of sales for him). I think he's correct in believing that Reading List will be a good gateway drug for the people who have never heard of Instapaper but will soon get hooked on the idea and potentially look for a more powerful version of the same tool. What's "shady" about Apple listening to criticism and allowing the hardware shutter button? Would you rather that they stuck to their original position?

swilliams 15y ago
I don't think he realized that Reading List was going to be on iOS too. Here's his exact response during the keynote: https://twitter.com/#!/marcoarment/status/77796293510037504 https://twitter.com/#!/marcoarment/status/77796293510037504
- GHFigs 15y ago
  https://twitter.com/#!/marcoarment/status/77799506602762241 https://twitter.com/#!/marcoarment/status/77799506602762241 Glad I've invested in social and editorial features. Not dead yet!
btucker 15y ago
It seems Marco's views have shifted somewhat after seeing the demo: https://twitter.com/#!/marcoarment/status/77796293510037504 https://twitter.com/#!/marcoarment/status/77796293510037504 I think Instapaper will still be very successful. He may need to raise the price & focus on a smaller "Pro" user-base, though.

msbarnett 15y ago

So what's the solution here? To me the outcry over this seems pretty contradictory given the general antipathy around here towards software patents. Either ideas are something that an individual can own and control and others are forbidden to use without permission, or everybody is free to implement them and innovate around them. Is Marco going to have to do some work now to differentiate himself from Reading List? Totally. But is that a bad thing? He was no more entitled to a competition-free perpetual business model than the Record Labels or Movie Studios or Banking Industry or any other perennial target around here. Marco is a smart and skilled guy and there's no way this is going to kill him off unless he willingly lets it.

nathanb 15y ago
I agree completely; you can't have it both ways. However, the point in the OP about Camera+ seems a bit more legit. Rejecting an app for doing X and then doing X yourself in the next release seems like a huge double-standard, and where there are double standards there is foothold for allegations of anti-competitive behavior. That said, however, the difference between me (sitting in a cubicle typing this) and the creative forces behind Instapaper and Camera+ is (hopefully) that where I see small developers being turned into digital sharecroppers by a dictatorial corporation, they see an opportunity to differentiate themselves from the stock offering by excelling in the very specific area they're focusing on.
- alanfalcon 15y ago
  Actually, the Camera+ developers filed a feature request and asked Apple to add the volume-button-as-shutter feature. See: http://taptaptap.com/blog/cameraplus-volumesnap-rejected/ http://taptaptap.com/blog/cameraplus-volumesnap-rejected/ So I imagine they're pretty happy with this development.
wnight 15y ago
Remember Ballmer chanting "Developers! Developers! ..."? Well, here Apple is saying "Screw the developers". Sure, they have a right to do this, and perhaps an obligations, but the developers put out business without warning probably won't keep developing for Apple. Over time that will work to reduce developer uptake, and thus app selection on iOS, which is why they perhaps should have chosen to somehow lessen the blow to unlucky developers.

lukifer 15y ago

I really feel for the folks at Red Pop today: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/786496402/red-pop http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/786496402/red-pop

anko 15y ago
that was my first thought too - i was going to buy one of these today, now I think I'll wait until ios5 and see if i still want it.

alanh 15y ago

Oh, please. I am not buying it. The selling point of iOS is the user experience, and part of that experience was that hardware buttons act predictably, in every context. Was. Realizing how important the camera has become, they are reprioritizing the photo experience above the universally-consistent-hardware experience. If you don’t think this topic was internally debated over and over at Apple, long before TapTapTap submitted their app, you don’t get Apple.