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> Yet, you are not willing to contribute anything to make this happen. You'd be willing to reap the benefits from it, but not to actually put in any effort. Sho

by ohazi 6y ago

> Yet, you are not willing to contribute anything to make this happen. You'd be willing to reap the benefits from it, but not to actually put in any effort. Show some willingness to put skin in the game, otherwise all your "beliefs" are nothing but hot air. Once again, stop putting words in my mouth. I never said I wouldn't contribute something to make this happen, but this is the second time you've insinuated as much. Enough. I never claimed that this should happen without funding. I stated that I believe it's possible for this to happen without funding. None of those statements are equivalent.

rglullis 6y ago
> I never said I wouldn't contribute something to make this happen, I asked if you are willing to pay, you said no. So let me ask: is there any way that you are willing to contribute? Will you volunteer? Will you review the fork? What is going to be your share of sacrifice to the "community"? Are you going to do this continuously or find a successor? It's not just "funding" that I am talking about. Moreover: if this is so important for you and if you believe that more people share your values, why don't you lead by example and start doing this instead of waiting for others?
- ohazi 6y ago
  That is not what you asked, and for the third time, that is not what I said. You asked: "Does the person doing the work need to be paid?" Which I interpreted to mean: "Is this project doomed to fail if the developers are not monetarily compensated?" I answered: "No, I don't believe this project will necessarily fail if the developers aren't paid." I did not say that I wouldn't fund, work on, promote, organize, or otherwise support such a project. I made no statements about whether I would or wouldn't support such a project, other than to say that "I think this would be a good idea," yet you've repeatedly brought these elements into the conversation as a bludgeon so that you can claim that either my principles are dumb, or that I'm not principled enough.
  - rglullis 6y ago
    Read again: > Are you willing to pay for it? How much? Can you get more people to commit to it? For how long?
    - ohazi 6y ago
      That is not the question I explicitly quoted when I answered "no." I deliberately did not answer this second question.
      - rglullis 6y ago
        Yeah, I know. Can you answer it, then?
        ohazi 6y ago
        So that you can turn my answer into another ad hominem attack? No, I don't think I will.
        rglullis 6y ago
        What ad hominem? It's not about you or your character. I am not trying to argue that your "belief" is right or wrong. This is up to you. What I am asking is "how strongly are you willing to stand behind your belief?" It's a simple filter to check if you will continue to hold your belief if it costs you something to defend it. It's just a test of Skin in the Game.
        ohazi 6y ago
        > Show some willingness to put skin in the game, otherwise all your "beliefs" are nothing but hot air. This felt like an ad hominem. I was making a case for the existence of people who choose to write software for principled reasons rather than for money. How much extra money I have to personally throw at a project doesn't change this number of people, since they're (by definition) not doing it for the money. But you seem to think that me not having enough skin in the game is justification for dismissing my argument as hot air. I don't think that justification holds. --- I'm sorry, I'm not really mad, I'm mostly just frustrated with where this conversation has gone. Would I support such a project? Yeah, I'd probably throw a few bucks at them, like I've occasionally done in the past with Mozilla, with other projects, and with individual software developers who wrote tools that I like. Would my meager contributions make or break the project? Obviously not. Are you going to argue that the sum total contributions from people like me will likely amount to less than one engineer's salary, and therefore the project is doomed? You can make that argument if you want -- I don't agree with it. Look, this is the kind of thing we're talking about: https://twitter.com/CohanRobinson/status/1364172683118866433 https://twitter.com/CohanRobinson/status/1364172683118866433 I think it's bullshit and don't want that in my browser. I bet you probably don't like it very much either. The only thing I was trying to argue in response to your questions essentially boils down to "people have gotten angry and forked some pretty major projects for far less than this." ffmpeg and libav Debian and Devuan over systemd ...etc. It just doesn't seem too far fetched to me to think that some person / people might feel incensed and motivated enough about this change to create a de-crap-ified Firefox fork, even if they weren't getting paid. That's all.

by ohazi 6y ago

rglullis 6y ago

> I never said I wouldn't contribute something to make this happen, I asked if you are willing to pay, you said no. So let me ask: is there any way that you are willing to contribute? Will you volunteer? Will you review the fork? What is going to be your share of sacrifice to the "community"? Are you going to do this continuously or find a successor? It's not just "funding" that I am talking about. Moreover: if this is so important for you and if you believe that more people share your values, why don't you lead by example and start doing this instead of waiting for others?

ohazi 6y ago
That is not what you asked, and for the third time, that is not what I said. You asked: "Does the person doing the work need to be paid?" Which I interpreted to mean: "Is this project doomed to fail if the developers are not monetarily compensated?" I answered: "No, I don't believe this project will necessarily fail if the developers aren't paid." I did not say that I wouldn't fund, work on, promote, organize, or otherwise support such a project. I made no statements about whether I would or wouldn't support such a project, other than to say that "I think this would be a good idea," yet you've repeatedly brought these elements into the conversation as a bludgeon so that you can claim that either my principles are dumb, or that I'm not principled enough.
- rglullis 6y ago
  Read again: > Are you willing to pay for it? How much? Can you get more people to commit to it? For how long?
  - ohazi 6y ago
    That is not the question I explicitly quoted when I answered "no." I deliberately did not answer this second question.
    - rglullis 6y ago
      Yeah, I know. Can you answer it, then?
      - ohazi 6y ago
        So that you can turn my answer into another ad hominem attack? No, I don't think I will.
        rglullis 6y ago
        What ad hominem? It's not about you or your character. I am not trying to argue that your "belief" is right or wrong. This is up to you. What I am asking is "how strongly are you willing to stand behind your belief?" It's a simple filter to check if you will continue to hold your belief if it costs you something to defend it. It's just a test of Skin in the Game.
        ohazi 6y ago
        > Show some willingness to put skin in the game, otherwise all your "beliefs" are nothing but hot air. This felt like an ad hominem. I was making a case for the existence of people who choose to write software for principled reasons rather than for money. How much extra money I have to personally throw at a project doesn't change this number of people, since they're (by definition) not doing it for the money. But you seem to think that me not having enough skin in the game is justification for dismissing my argument as hot air. I don't think that justification holds. --- I'm sorry, I'm not really mad, I'm mostly just frustrated with where this conversation has gone. Would I support such a project? Yeah, I'd probably throw a few bucks at them, like I've occasionally done in the past with Mozilla, with other projects, and with individual software developers who wrote tools that I like. Would my meager contributions make or break the project? Obviously not. Are you going to argue that the sum total contributions from people like me will likely amount to less than one engineer's salary, and therefore the project is doomed? You can make that argument if you want -- I don't agree with it. Look, this is the kind of thing we're talking about: https://twitter.com/CohanRobinson/status/1364172683118866433 https://twitter.com/CohanRobinson/status/1364172683118866433 I think it's bullshit and don't want that in my browser. I bet you probably don't like it very much either. The only thing I was trying to argue in response to your questions essentially boils down to "people have gotten angry and forked some pretty major projects for far less than this." ffmpeg and libav Debian and Devuan over systemd ...etc. It just doesn't seem too far fetched to me to think that some person / people might feel incensed and motivated enough about this change to create a de-crap-ified Firefox fork, even if they weren't getting paid. That's all.