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I am not trying to be a smart ass but how about this for an human incentive: Build us plane that fulfills these outlined objectives, that meets are budget requi

I am not trying to be a smart ass but how about this for an human incentive: Build us plane that fulfills these outlined objectives, that meets are budget requirements, or we will shop somewhere else.

bumby 6y ago
I get what you’re saying but I wish it were that easy. Take the requirements for example. If they aren’t airtight, you’ll get into a wordsmithing scenario where the contractor claims they met the requirement and it becomes a game where the team with the best lawyer wins. Write the requirements too explicitly and contractors will push back saying “tell us what you want, not how we’re supposed to do it.” A somewhat silly example is if you specify you want unit testing on all safety critical code paths a contractor may claim they define running a compiler as “unit testing”. A contracting officer may not be technically savvy enough to push back and when the subject matter experts try to leave negative contract comments (that get reviewed when awarding future contracts) they get scrubbed because its not worth the fight in the eyes of the contracting officer. Unfortunately, just saying “do good work” just doesn’t...work
- SCAQTony 6y ago
  Thank you, my ignorance on the subject has summarily changed
- blaser-waffle 6y ago
  And the parent's comment is any contracting work, really. With DoD you have to add in various accountability steps, political footballs, public opinion, etc. If you've spent time around the DC area you'd be shocked at the number of adverts for things like the F-22 that you see. One time I took the metro from NoVA to MD, with a stop off downtown, and counted at least 6. They're not just bringing lawyers and playing contractor games, they're aggressively marketing to everyone.
  - mekkkkkk 6y ago
    Having only been to the US a few times I'm floored by this. You mean to tell me that there are actual printed ads in public places for _fighter planes_? I can sort of understand the rationale in DC, but it just seems surreal to me. Those kinds of purchases being swayed by subway ads... I really hope it's a joke.
    - rfdave 6y ago
      WTOP, which is the All News/Traffic station is filled with ads from contractors during the Drive time. Of course, I last listened to them a year ago, but I suspect that hasn't changed. Listen to them anytime between 7am and 9am EST.
jki275 6y ago
Where do you shop? The problem with massive development efforts like this is that there aren't a lot of competitors. In this particular field, there are two, and not really even quite two exactly.
- marshmallow_12 6y ago
  i don't understand why 200 billion dollars wouldn't be enough for the US to make their own plane company.
  - eropple 6y ago
    There would have to be organizational will to do so, and one pole of the American political system doesn't have it for a military plane program and the other actively hates the idea of nationalized industry.
  - jki275 6y ago
    We did, we made several of them. Lockheed, Boeing, Northrup, etc...
wsc981 6y ago
I believe one of the objectives of the F-35 was for the plane to be able to fulfill all kinds of different roles. That idea in itself seems pretty much impossible for me. Especially on a budget.
- toomuchtodo 6y ago
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXQ2lO3ieBA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXQ2lO3ieBA
  - mongrol-smush 6y ago
    Wonderful! Thanks for that.
jacquesm 6y ago
Your main error is a simple assumption: that both parties are honorable.
dublin 6y ago
Sounds like the Air Force still needs the F-20 Tigershark (killed by Ft. Worthless Jim Wright to protect the F-16 from competition) to bail out the F-35 Trillion Dollar Turkey. The F-20 may have been the last time an aircraft company ever pitched an airplane developed on the company's money. Despite being highly praised by all who flew it (including Chuck Yeager), it's ugly demise at the hands of politics (it was less than half the price of the F-16) was an example to all to never do this again...

bumby 6y ago

I get what you’re saying but I wish it were that easy. Take the requirements for example. If they aren’t airtight, you’ll get into a wordsmithing scenario where the contractor claims they met the requirement and it becomes a game where the team with the best lawyer wins. Write the requirements too explicitly and contractors will push back saying “tell us what you want, not how we’re supposed to do it.” A somewhat silly example is if you specify you want unit testing on all safety critical code paths a contractor may claim they define running a compiler as “unit testing”. A contracting officer may not be technically savvy enough to push back and when the subject matter experts try to leave negative contract comments (that get reviewed when awarding future contracts) they get scrubbed because its not worth the fight in the eyes of the contracting officer. Unfortunately, just saying “do good work” just doesn’t...work

SCAQTony 6y ago
Thank you, my ignorance on the subject has summarily changed
blaser-waffle 6y ago
And the parent's comment is any contracting work, really. With DoD you have to add in various accountability steps, political footballs, public opinion, etc. If you've spent time around the DC area you'd be shocked at the number of adverts for things like the F-22 that you see. One time I took the metro from NoVA to MD, with a stop off downtown, and counted at least 6. They're not just bringing lawyers and playing contractor games, they're aggressively marketing to everyone.
- mekkkkkk 6y ago
  Having only been to the US a few times I'm floored by this. You mean to tell me that there are actual printed ads in public places for _fighter planes_? I can sort of understand the rationale in DC, but it just seems surreal to me. Those kinds of purchases being swayed by subway ads... I really hope it's a joke.
  - rfdave 6y ago
    WTOP, which is the All News/Traffic station is filled with ads from contractors during the Drive time. Of course, I last listened to them a year ago, but I suspect that hasn't changed. Listen to them anytime between 7am and 9am EST.

jki275 6y ago

Where do you shop? The problem with massive development efforts like this is that there aren't a lot of competitors. In this particular field, there are two, and not really even quite two exactly.

marshmallow_12 6y ago
i don't understand why 200 billion dollars wouldn't be enough for the US to make their own plane company.
- eropple 6y ago
  There would have to be organizational will to do so, and one pole of the American political system doesn't have it for a military plane program and the other actively hates the idea of nationalized industry.
- jki275 6y ago
  We did, we made several of them. Lockheed, Boeing, Northrup, etc...

wsc981 6y ago

I believe one of the objectives of the F-35 was for the plane to be able to fulfill all kinds of different roles. That idea in itself seems pretty much impossible for me. Especially on a budget.

toomuchtodo 6y ago
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXQ2lO3ieBA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXQ2lO3ieBA
- mongrol-smush 6y ago
  Wonderful! Thanks for that.

jacquesm 6y ago

Your main error is a simple assumption: that both parties are honorable.

dublin 6y ago

Sounds like the Air Force still needs the F-20 Tigershark (killed by Ft. Worthless Jim Wright to protect the F-16 from competition) to bail out the F-35 Trillion Dollar Turkey. The F-20 may have been the last time an aircraft company ever pitched an airplane developed on the company's money. Despite being highly praised by all who flew it (including Chuck Yeager), it's ugly demise at the hands of politics (it was less than half the price of the F-16) was an example to all to never do this again...