4 ms·

news.yc really needs the ability to add a descriptive sticky first comment along with a URL otherwise the RSS feed, and this page, has bugger all on it to know

by ralph 19y ago

news.yc really needs the ability to add a descriptive sticky first comment along with a URL otherwise the RSS feed, and this page, has bugger all on it to know whether to click on the link or not. Yes, this is already on the Feature Requests page. I'm just letting off steam.

bootload 19y ago
'... news.yc really needs the ability to add a descriptive sticky first comment along with a URL otherwise the RSS feed, and this page, has bugger all on it to know whether to click on the link or not ...' To expect the submitter to do this is ideal, but not scalable. (I know I've tried to add comments in articles as I've posted them, but gave up because of the number I submit. I do read them but now comment sparingly.) There is a real problem with generating volumes of information quickly. If you want speed, there is a limit on the amount of meta information a user can reasonably generate. If you want usefulness, this requires more time on behalf of users submitting. Newspapers have this problem and solved it by training news editors to create catchy titles that neatly summarises the entire article in a small sentence - maybe even a few words. But not everyone writing articles on the web is trained in Journalistic techniques, let alone people who read this site. There is also the other problem when re-phrasing or changing titles of articles. Mutilating them into something un-recognisable from the original. This is where the software has to work harder. By supplying users with the tools to classify, sort and value the submissions with tags, comments, summaries (already have ranking). I'm thinking here of delicious where tagging has allowed users to sort quickly by tag, then if they want to add more data themselves (descriptions, summary). The other way is to gather meta data from the source document (tags, microformats) where possible (un-likely as it takes time to process documents to generate useful things like summaries - even longer for meta data like microformats). Now the question is, could "pg with news.yc create some tools to help users or process new submissions extracting meta-data"?
- ralph 19y ago
  If I wanted volumes of information I know where to find it. This is news.yc. I'm hoping for quality, not quantity, and if that means a 70% fall in submissions, who cares? Besides, having the ability to attach a comment to the URL does't mandate putting anything in it. It's suggestive to the submitter that they should make the effort though else their submission might not compare well against those that do. And if a submitter thinks "Oh, this article isn't really good enough to spend my time on summarising" then that's a good test of whether they should inflict it on the rest of us in the first place. Rant over. :-)
  - bootload 19y ago
    '... Besides, having the ability to attach a comment to the URL does't mandate putting anything in it. It's suggestive to the submitter that they should make the effort ...' I've tried now to add title + (summary) on the submissions resulting in a more descriptive subject line. It actually works at the expense of size & a bit of time. So I have to agree with this bit and have changed my approach. '... If I wanted volumes of information I know where to find it. This is news.yc. I'm hoping for quality, not quantity, and if that means a 70% fall in submissions, who cares? ...' This is already automated by users in the news link ( http://news.ycombinator.com/news http://news.ycombinator.com/news ) and for the best articles in the best link ( http://news.ycombinator.com/best http://news.ycombinator.com/best ) As for me I'd rather more articles submitted & gain the benefit of the long tail of submissions (lots), let the brains filter submissions (users) and see the resultant niches of information pop up instead of just the hits ~ http://longtail.typepad.com/the_long_tail/2005/07/how_finely_can_.html http://longtail.typepad.com/the_long_tail/2005/07/how_finely_can_.html '... Rant over ...' It was a good one, because it made me think about this & in the process solved a few problems I was working on :)
    - ralph 19y ago
      The news and best links don't help avoid the long tail. best is too static; it rarely changes. And http://news.ycombinator.com/rss http://news.ycombinator.com/rss presents too much dross. Dross which is hard to for my brain to filter because each item has too little info so I end up having to visit every thread and then often each linked external article. (Thanks for starting to add (comments) to the title.)
      - bootload 19y ago
        "... (Thanks for starting to add (comments) to the title.) ..." Believe me it makes a difference & really solves the crappy title problem. But it can be improved. I haven't used the the rss feed much ( http://news.ycombinator.com/rss http://news.ycombinator.com/rss ) but doing so I found that there is a cut-off on the browser I use (Firefox = toolbars = bookmarks ) toolbar cuts the text off at 40 characters. So If the title contains the most accurate info in the first 40 characters it even works in the RSS feeds (reader) with readers truncating the rest of the message. The other problem I noticed with the RSS feed is the transporting you to the direct link, not the news.yc feed which as the original link in the title. So rule of thumb: good title in 40 char http://www.flickr.com/photos/bootload/587744795/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/bootload/587744795/
pg 19y ago
I may add this for questions, but for submissions I think it's good to make the submitter try to make the title do the work. Gives you a denser frontpage too: reddit vs digg.
- ralph 19y ago
  How about telling the submitter that on the submissions page? (Along with a few other choice things, e.g. there's a Feature Requests thread.) I agree a good title is important, and a denser front page is good too, but that doesn't rule out an accompanying summary; it just isn't shown on the front page. The summary can still get shown at the top of the thread. And it's a real boon to those reading through RSS.

by ralph 19y ago

bootload 19y ago

'... news.yc really needs the ability to add a descriptive sticky first comment along with a URL otherwise the RSS feed, and this page, has bugger all on it to know whether to click on the link or not ...' To expect the submitter to do this is ideal, but not scalable. (I know I've tried to add comments in articles as I've posted them, but gave up because of the number I submit. I do read them but now comment sparingly.) There is a real problem with generating volumes of information quickly. If you want speed, there is a limit on the amount of meta information a user can reasonably generate. If you want usefulness, this requires more time on behalf of users submitting. Newspapers have this problem and solved it by training news editors to create catchy titles that neatly summarises the entire article in a small sentence - maybe even a few words. But not everyone writing articles on the web is trained in Journalistic techniques, let alone people who read this site. There is also the other problem when re-phrasing or changing titles of articles. Mutilating them into something un-recognisable from the original. This is where the software has to work harder. By supplying users with the tools to classify, sort and value the submissions with tags, comments, summaries (already have ranking). I'm thinking here of delicious where tagging has allowed users to sort quickly by tag, then if they want to add more data themselves (descriptions, summary). The other way is to gather meta data from the source document (tags, microformats) where possible (un-likely as it takes time to process documents to generate useful things like summaries - even longer for meta data like microformats). Now the question is, could "pg with news.yc create some tools to help users or process new submissions extracting meta-data"?

ralph 19y ago
If I wanted volumes of information I know where to find it. This is news.yc. I'm hoping for quality, not quantity, and if that means a 70% fall in submissions, who cares? Besides, having the ability to attach a comment to the URL does't mandate putting anything in it. It's suggestive to the submitter that they should make the effort though else their submission might not compare well against those that do. And if a submitter thinks "Oh, this article isn't really good enough to spend my time on summarising" then that's a good test of whether they should inflict it on the rest of us in the first place. Rant over. :-)
- bootload 19y ago
  '... Besides, having the ability to attach a comment to the URL does't mandate putting anything in it. It's suggestive to the submitter that they should make the effort ...' I've tried now to add title + (summary) on the submissions resulting in a more descriptive subject line. It actually works at the expense of size & a bit of time. So I have to agree with this bit and have changed my approach. '... If I wanted volumes of information I know where to find it. This is news.yc. I'm hoping for quality, not quantity, and if that means a 70% fall in submissions, who cares? ...' This is already automated by users in the news link ( http://news.ycombinator.com/news http://news.ycombinator.com/news ) and for the best articles in the best link ( http://news.ycombinator.com/best http://news.ycombinator.com/best ) As for me I'd rather more articles submitted & gain the benefit of the long tail of submissions (lots), let the brains filter submissions (users) and see the resultant niches of information pop up instead of just the hits ~ http://longtail.typepad.com/the_long_tail/2005/07/how_finely_can_.html http://longtail.typepad.com/the_long_tail/2005/07/how_finely_can_.html '... Rant over ...' It was a good one, because it made me think about this & in the process solved a few problems I was working on :)
  - ralph 19y ago
    The news and best links don't help avoid the long tail. best is too static; it rarely changes. And http://news.ycombinator.com/rss http://news.ycombinator.com/rss presents too much dross. Dross which is hard to for my brain to filter because each item has too little info so I end up having to visit every thread and then often each linked external article. (Thanks for starting to add (comments) to the title.)
    - bootload 19y ago
      "... (Thanks for starting to add (comments) to the title.) ..." Believe me it makes a difference & really solves the crappy title problem. But it can be improved. I haven't used the the rss feed much ( http://news.ycombinator.com/rss http://news.ycombinator.com/rss ) but doing so I found that there is a cut-off on the browser I use (Firefox = toolbars = bookmarks ) toolbar cuts the text off at 40 characters. So If the title contains the most accurate info in the first 40 characters it even works in the RSS feeds (reader) with readers truncating the rest of the message. The other problem I noticed with the RSS feed is the transporting you to the direct link, not the news.yc feed which as the original link in the title. So rule of thumb: good title in 40 char http://www.flickr.com/photos/bootload/587744795/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/bootload/587744795/

pg 19y ago

I may add this for questions, but for submissions I think it's good to make the submitter try to make the title do the work. Gives you a denser frontpage too: reddit vs digg.

ralph 19y ago
How about telling the submitter that on the submissions page? (Along with a few other choice things, e.g. there's a Feature Requests thread.) I agree a good title is important, and a denser front page is good too, but that doesn't rule out an accompanying summary; it just isn't shown on the front page. The summary can still get shown at the top of the thread. And it's a real boon to those reading through RSS.