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The EU now requires 15'000€ transfers in under 2 minutes and less than 1,50€ fees, and any other transfers in under 24 hours for free (for non-commercial custom

The EU now requires 15'000€ transfers in under 2 minutes and less than 1,50€ fees, and any other transfers in under 24 hours for free (for non-commercial customers).

Alupis 6y ago
What do they mean by "transfer"? I can transfer money to a friend for lunch instantly already, using a plethora of apps such as PayPal, Cash, Venmo, etc. Or, if I write a check, and they deposit it on their bank's phone app, nearly always the funds are available immediately. $15,000 Euros is a lot of money... I honestly wonder what problem was solved by mandating that amount of money must be transferred, cleared, and available for withdrawal within 2 minutes. It seems to me nobody has a legitimate reason for that, unless you're a Nigerian Prince. What problem did it solve and why is it considered a good thing?
- tialaramex 6y ago
  €15000 (we have a whole symbol for the Euro) isn't that much money. You definitely might buy a second hand car for that much, and I don't want to give you the keys until the money appears in my account, even if legally you'd have "stolen" it if your money wasn't good, that's a huge hassle. And I've certainly sent somewhat smaller amounts for stuff like "Hey trip is on, we booked that holiday villa, €1000 for single rooms, €800 each if you're sharing, let me know if you can't pay this week". I'm sure this rule would have been fine if it was €10 000 rather than €15 000 but how often do you want politicians to re-authorise? If it was €1000 by now people would be annoyed at the size limit already.
  - Alupis 6y ago
    > €15000 (we have a whole symbol for the Euro) I don't have one on my keyboard unfortunately, otherwise I'd happily use it where appropriate! > And I've certainly sent somewhat smaller amounts for stuff like "Hey trip is on, we booked that holiday villa, €1000 for single rooms, €800 each if you're sharing, let me know if you can't pay this week". Your scenario doesn't seem to have been impacted by 2 minute mandatory transfer times in either direction. > I'm sure this rule would have been fine if it was €10 000 rather than €15 000 but how often do you want politicians to re-authorise? If it was €1000 by now people would be annoyed at the size limit already. Sure it's an arbitrary amount and they had to pick some amount I suppose. Even $10K is a lot for an ordinary person - potentially life changing if lost in some unfortunate instant transfer with the wrong number entered. That, of course, is a human problem (typing wrong number or whatever), but the delays we're talking about provide a safety cushion to cancel transactions in those scenarios.
    - tialaramex 6y ago
      Deliberately fooling people into giving the wrong account numbers for transactions they wanted to make, but to somebody else ("Push Fraud") was a thing in the UK. So, they told the banks to make the previously merely reference value for the recipient's name actually enforced. If I try to give money to Victoria Smith 12-34-56 0123456789 then the backend will notice that's not Victoria Smith's account, and tell me I need to figure out what I did wrong. Maybe the problem is Victoria married, and is now Victoria Jones, you can clear that up. Maybe I got the number wrong. Maybe she's Victoria Smyth or Smithe and then it'll suggest this was just a typo using some heuristic. Or maybe it's the account of a scammer named Michael Black and the scam fails because the name doesn't match. This was a bit awkward for my ISP because their name has an ampersand in it, and so of course this means some banks end up believing their name is "Andrews &AMP; Arnold" and similar stupidity. But it's been bedded down now a bit. This approach leverages a reference for the payee that existed but was previously not checked, plus KYC checks already in place, it's hard these days to open accounts for names that aren't yours or with no apparent credit history for an organisation.
- kuschku 6y ago
  (a) using third party apps instead of the banking system itself is a workaround, not a solution. especially as those apps demand fees. (b) cheques have been deprecated and stopped being accepted in the EU in 2004. It solves the same issue as paypal, cash, venmo, etc, except the receiver can immediately use the money for any and all purposes, without fees, without yet another third party app. This in turn allows new third party apps to be built on top of the new infrastructure.
odshoifsdhfs 6y ago
Can I ask where this <2 minutes comes from? As various banks I work with don't follow that. I get a few transfers in the EU per month and sometimes I am lucky if it is same day (if done in the morning) but in most cases I get it the next day. Heck, in same country, I have two bank accounts and transfer between them have never been faster than 4-6 hours. (Same bank is seconds though)
- kuschku 6y ago
  That's the SEPA instant spec which is slowly being rolled out and will become mandatory to support in the future. If your bank doesn't support it yet, the old 24h limit applies.

The EU now requires 15'000€ transfers in under 2 minutes and less than 1,50€ fees, and any other transfers in under 24 hours for free (for non-commercial customers).

Alupis 6y ago

What do they mean by "transfer"? I can transfer money to a friend for lunch instantly already, using a plethora of apps such as PayPal, Cash, Venmo, etc. Or, if I write a check, and they deposit it on their bank's phone app, nearly always the funds are available immediately. $15,000 Euros is a lot of money... I honestly wonder what problem was solved by mandating that amount of money must be transferred, cleared, and available for withdrawal within 2 minutes. It seems to me nobody has a legitimate reason for that, unless you're a Nigerian Prince. What problem did it solve and why is it considered a good thing?

tialaramex 6y ago
€15000 (we have a whole symbol for the Euro) isn't that much money. You definitely might buy a second hand car for that much, and I don't want to give you the keys until the money appears in my account, even if legally you'd have "stolen" it if your money wasn't good, that's a huge hassle. And I've certainly sent somewhat smaller amounts for stuff like "Hey trip is on, we booked that holiday villa, €1000 for single rooms, €800 each if you're sharing, let me know if you can't pay this week". I'm sure this rule would have been fine if it was €10 000 rather than €15 000 but how often do you want politicians to re-authorise? If it was €1000 by now people would be annoyed at the size limit already.
- Alupis 6y ago
  > €15000 (we have a whole symbol for the Euro) I don't have one on my keyboard unfortunately, otherwise I'd happily use it where appropriate! > And I've certainly sent somewhat smaller amounts for stuff like "Hey trip is on, we booked that holiday villa, €1000 for single rooms, €800 each if you're sharing, let me know if you can't pay this week". Your scenario doesn't seem to have been impacted by 2 minute mandatory transfer times in either direction. > I'm sure this rule would have been fine if it was €10 000 rather than €15 000 but how often do you want politicians to re-authorise? If it was €1000 by now people would be annoyed at the size limit already. Sure it's an arbitrary amount and they had to pick some amount I suppose. Even $10K is a lot for an ordinary person - potentially life changing if lost in some unfortunate instant transfer with the wrong number entered. That, of course, is a human problem (typing wrong number or whatever), but the delays we're talking about provide a safety cushion to cancel transactions in those scenarios.
  - tialaramex 6y ago
    Deliberately fooling people into giving the wrong account numbers for transactions they wanted to make, but to somebody else ("Push Fraud") was a thing in the UK. So, they told the banks to make the previously merely reference value for the recipient's name actually enforced. If I try to give money to Victoria Smith 12-34-56 0123456789 then the backend will notice that's not Victoria Smith's account, and tell me I need to figure out what I did wrong. Maybe the problem is Victoria married, and is now Victoria Jones, you can clear that up. Maybe I got the number wrong. Maybe she's Victoria Smyth or Smithe and then it'll suggest this was just a typo using some heuristic. Or maybe it's the account of a scammer named Michael Black and the scam fails because the name doesn't match. This was a bit awkward for my ISP because their name has an ampersand in it, and so of course this means some banks end up believing their name is "Andrews &AMP; Arnold" and similar stupidity. But it's been bedded down now a bit. This approach leverages a reference for the payee that existed but was previously not checked, plus KYC checks already in place, it's hard these days to open accounts for names that aren't yours or with no apparent credit history for an organisation.
kuschku 6y ago
(a) using third party apps instead of the banking system itself is a workaround, not a solution. especially as those apps demand fees. (b) cheques have been deprecated and stopped being accepted in the EU in 2004. It solves the same issue as paypal, cash, venmo, etc, except the receiver can immediately use the money for any and all purposes, without fees, without yet another third party app. This in turn allows new third party apps to be built on top of the new infrastructure.

odshoifsdhfs 6y ago

Can I ask where this <2 minutes comes from? As various banks I work with don't follow that. I get a few transfers in the EU per month and sometimes I am lucky if it is same day (if done in the morning) but in most cases I get it the next day. Heck, in same country, I have two bank accounts and transfer between them have never been faster than 4-6 hours. (Same bank is seconds though)

kuschku 6y ago
That's the SEPA instant spec which is slowly being rolled out and will become mandatory to support in the future. If your bank doesn't support it yet, the old 24h limit applies.