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Should probably qualify this as "geographically decentralized". As long as there are C-level executives, VPs, and the usual corporate heirarchy, they're not re

Should probably qualify this as "geographically decentralized". As long as there are C-level executives, VPs, and the usual corporate heirarchy, they're not really decentralized in the sense that cryptocurrency itself is fully consensus-driven.

CharlesW 6y ago
> As long as there are C-level executives, VPs, and the usual corporate heirarchy, they're not really decentralized in the sense that cryptocurrency itself is fully consensus-driven. Is that the best litmus test? My impression is that Valve is decentralized and self-organizing company[1] even though Gabe still has a "President" title. In any case, it's quite an achievement to lie twice in a relatively short title. It's also ironic considering that Coinbase's business model is built on centralizing cryptocurrency services. [1] "Welcome to Flatland [PDF]": http://dl.pcgamer.com/Valve_Handbook_LowRes.pdf http://dl.pcgamer.com/Valve_Handbook_LowRes.pdf
- tessierashpool 6y ago
  take a minute to look up the various "I was inside Valve and it had a hidden structure" war stories. that led to a lot of people reading "The Tyranny of Structurelessness" back in the day. TLDR: "Welcome To Flatland" is Valve marketing and it doesn't hurt to take it with a grain of salt. https://www.pcgamer.com/valves-flat-structure-contains-hidden-layer-of-powerful-management-claims-ex-employee/?utm_source=fb&utm_medium=emp https://www.pcgamer.com/valves-flat-structure-contains-hidde... https://medium.com/dunia-media/the-nightmare-of-valves-self-organizing-utopia-6d32d329ecdb https://medium.com/dunia-media/the-nightmare-of-valves-self-... https://www.jofreeman.com/joreen/tyranny.htm https://www.jofreeman.com/joreen/tyranny.htm
  - hypertele-Xii 6y ago
    "I finally discovered who my boss was when she fired me."
  - yjftsjthsd-h 6y ago
    Surely that proves that it is decentralized; like so many decentralized services before it (IRC, email) the lack of the lack of formal structure meant that its structure was emergent instead (freenode, gmail).
  - bulek 6y ago
    Important to note that Gabe gave the product rights that the fired team were developing. Said team went on to have a successful Kickstarter (250% successful!), and then failed in actually delivering results. In hindsight, seems smart to pull the plug so far in advance. I'm sure the complaints about informal power groups, careful politicking being required and gaurded groups are true... if only because that's true in every office I've worked in.
    - owenmarshall 6y ago
      > In hindsight, seems smart to pull the plug so far in advance. Not knowing the product, this looks like it may be a valid interpretation; could another be that the project would be more likely to succeed with the commercial backing of a company like Valve?
      - bulek 6y ago
        Absolutely, let me walk back my language so that its clear I'm extrapolating from very limited data. Edit: I can't edit it anymore. Was going to change it to "Based on this limited insight, it may have been the best option for both parties to part ways given the project teams complaints and valves lack of interest in the product"
skybrian 6y ago
Sure. I think this is more a matter of Conway's law, or the old observation that when a company moves its headquarters, it usually makes the CEO's commute shorter. They say that nobody on the executive team lives in San Francisco anymore, so that much seems likely to stick.
fogof 6y ago
Indeed, I would say the article is mistitled. Or at least, it was titled in a way that tries to capitalize on the buzzwordiness of the term "decentralized" without really using the word in the sense in which it is usually used by the cryptocurrency community. A better title would have been "Coinbase now permanently Remote-first".
dheera 6y ago
Also, Coinbase isn't legally decentralized. If someone wanted to subpony them or serve them a court summons they still have a listed agent for service of process. A truly decentralized company, in the ideological sense, would have none of that.
- riffraff 6y ago
  I think the word is "subpoena"? Subpony is quite fun though.
phreack 6y ago
And even then, only barely, since all of the open jobs are US/Canada only. There's a bunch of countries even on the same timezones being skipped, so I'd say it's pretty geographically centralized too.
Geee 6y ago
The word "distributed" is typically used to describe a system that consists of separated units. Decentralization is a more complex idea, but basically means that the authority of the system is distributed: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decentralization https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decentralization
Melting_Harps 6y ago
> Should probably qualify this as "geographically decentralized". What a loose use of the definition, which is oddly very much like Armstrong to attach his name and Coinbase to Bitcoin's virtues. And this is despite him actively helping push Bcash during USAF. > As long as there are C-level executives, VPs, and the usual corporate heirarchy, they're not really decentralized in the sense that cryptocurrency itself is fully consensus-driven. Also recall that these guys are ex Goldman Sachs with deep ties to VC, which includes YC and is definitely not decentralized in anyway. Why this is on the front page is showing it's ties to YC because otherwise the focus should be on how they keep shutting down during ATH, and price dips.
- CryptoPunk 6y ago
  Bitcoin Cash stays true to Bitcoin's original vision of allowing every one on Earth to control their bitcoin with their own private keys, and transfer it without trusted third party intermediaries. The Bitcoin Core cooption of Bitcoin - which was the cause of Bitcoin Cash being created - has led to Bitcoin being transformed into a currency that in any kind of future success scenario, only power-users (banks and exchanges) will directly transact with on-chain, with their own private keys. Armstrong's vision is much more pro-decentralization.
  - SkyMarshal 6y ago
    Bitcoin Cash foolishly believes they can wave a magic wand or “jazz hands” away the unavoidable technical constraints that inevitably led to Core’s roadmap. Core accepts the technical realities and limitations of Bitcoin’s design and works within them. Bitcoin Cash simply wishes them away and ignores them, and that will eventually cause the whole system to fail. They’ll learn the hard way what the wiser small block contingent have understood from the early days. Bitcoin Core’s layered architecture is the only realistically viable architecture given Bitcoin’s inherent design constraints.
    - UncleMeat 6y ago
      > Bitcoin Core’s layered architecture is the only realistically viable architecture given Bitcoin’s inherent design constraints. Then decentralization is dead and can never exist.

CharlesW 6y ago

> As long as there are C-level executives, VPs, and the usual corporate heirarchy, they're not really decentralized in the sense that cryptocurrency itself is fully consensus-driven. Is that the best litmus test? My impression is that Valve is decentralized and self-organizing company[1] even though Gabe still has a "President" title. In any case, it's quite an achievement to lie twice in a relatively short title. It's also ironic considering that Coinbase's business model is built on centralizing cryptocurrency services. [1] "Welcome to Flatland [PDF]": http://dl.pcgamer.com/Valve_Handbook_LowRes.pdf http://dl.pcgamer.com/Valve_Handbook_LowRes.pdf

tessierashpool 6y ago
take a minute to look up the various "I was inside Valve and it had a hidden structure" war stories. that led to a lot of people reading "The Tyranny of Structurelessness" back in the day. TLDR: "Welcome To Flatland" is Valve marketing and it doesn't hurt to take it with a grain of salt. https://www.pcgamer.com/valves-flat-structure-contains-hidden-layer-of-powerful-management-claims-ex-employee/?utm_source=fb&utm_medium=emp https://www.pcgamer.com/valves-flat-structure-contains-hidde... https://medium.com/dunia-media/the-nightmare-of-valves-self-organizing-utopia-6d32d329ecdb https://medium.com/dunia-media/the-nightmare-of-valves-self-... https://www.jofreeman.com/joreen/tyranny.htm https://www.jofreeman.com/joreen/tyranny.htm
- hypertele-Xii 6y ago
  "I finally discovered who my boss was when she fired me."
- yjftsjthsd-h 6y ago
  Surely that proves that it is decentralized; like so many decentralized services before it (IRC, email) the lack of the lack of formal structure meant that its structure was emergent instead (freenode, gmail).
- bulek 6y ago
  Important to note that Gabe gave the product rights that the fired team were developing. Said team went on to have a successful Kickstarter (250% successful!), and then failed in actually delivering results. In hindsight, seems smart to pull the plug so far in advance. I'm sure the complaints about informal power groups, careful politicking being required and gaurded groups are true... if only because that's true in every office I've worked in.
  - owenmarshall 6y ago
    > In hindsight, seems smart to pull the plug so far in advance. Not knowing the product, this looks like it may be a valid interpretation; could another be that the project would be more likely to succeed with the commercial backing of a company like Valve?
    - bulek 6y ago
      Absolutely, let me walk back my language so that its clear I'm extrapolating from very limited data. Edit: I can't edit it anymore. Was going to change it to "Based on this limited insight, it may have been the best option for both parties to part ways given the project teams complaints and valves lack of interest in the product"

skybrian 6y ago

Sure. I think this is more a matter of Conway's law, or the old observation that when a company moves its headquarters, it usually makes the CEO's commute shorter. They say that nobody on the executive team lives in San Francisco anymore, so that much seems likely to stick.

fogof 6y ago

Indeed, I would say the article is mistitled. Or at least, it was titled in a way that tries to capitalize on the buzzwordiness of the term "decentralized" without really using the word in the sense in which it is usually used by the cryptocurrency community. A better title would have been "Coinbase now permanently Remote-first".

dheera 6y ago

Also, Coinbase isn't legally decentralized. If someone wanted to subpony them or serve them a court summons they still have a listed agent for service of process. A truly decentralized company, in the ideological sense, would have none of that.

riffraff 6y ago
I think the word is "subpoena"? Subpony is quite fun though.

phreack 6y ago

And even then, only barely, since all of the open jobs are US/Canada only. There's a bunch of countries even on the same timezones being skipped, so I'd say it's pretty geographically centralized too.

Geee 6y ago

The word "distributed" is typically used to describe a system that consists of separated units. Decentralization is a more complex idea, but basically means that the authority of the system is distributed: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decentralization https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decentralization

Melting_Harps 6y ago

> Should probably qualify this as "geographically decentralized". What a loose use of the definition, which is oddly very much like Armstrong to attach his name and Coinbase to Bitcoin's virtues. And this is despite him actively helping push Bcash during USAF. > As long as there are C-level executives, VPs, and the usual corporate heirarchy, they're not really decentralized in the sense that cryptocurrency itself is fully consensus-driven. Also recall that these guys are ex Goldman Sachs with deep ties to VC, which includes YC and is definitely not decentralized in anyway. Why this is on the front page is showing it's ties to YC because otherwise the focus should be on how they keep shutting down during ATH, and price dips.

CryptoPunk 6y ago
Bitcoin Cash stays true to Bitcoin's original vision of allowing every one on Earth to control their bitcoin with their own private keys, and transfer it without trusted third party intermediaries. The Bitcoin Core cooption of Bitcoin - which was the cause of Bitcoin Cash being created - has led to Bitcoin being transformed into a currency that in any kind of future success scenario, only power-users (banks and exchanges) will directly transact with on-chain, with their own private keys. Armstrong's vision is much more pro-decentralization.
- SkyMarshal 6y ago
  Bitcoin Cash foolishly believes they can wave a magic wand or “jazz hands” away the unavoidable technical constraints that inevitably led to Core’s roadmap. Core accepts the technical realities and limitations of Bitcoin’s design and works within them. Bitcoin Cash simply wishes them away and ignores them, and that will eventually cause the whole system to fail. They’ll learn the hard way what the wiser small block contingent have understood from the early days. Bitcoin Core’s layered architecture is the only realistically viable architecture given Bitcoin’s inherent design constraints.
  - UncleMeat 6y ago
    > Bitcoin Core’s layered architecture is the only realistically viable architecture given Bitcoin’s inherent design constraints. Then decentralization is dead and can never exist.