6 ms·

If you need to send payments instantly, there are many other options out there, not the least of which is credit/debit card which is virtually instant and used.

If you need to send payments instantly, there are many other options out there, not the least of which is credit/debit card which is virtually instant and used... *everywhere*. What exactly do you want here?

A4ET8a8uTh0 6y ago
What I want.. what I want is for people to stop accepting the world as it is just because it is in this set up in this particular configuration. I want people to realize that they can actually shape the world to fit their needs. That is what I want. And if you really tried to use credit/debit card for those purposes, you quickly understand their limitations ( amounts come to mind ).
- Alupis 6y ago
  What scenario do you need to instantly send more than a credit card limit? Sounds like you're talking big money, $10,000+ type of transfers. This is very much so like the entire cargo/freight "Hyper-Loop" thing, or Rocketship cargo/freight, or even the Supersonic Aircraft thing... a solution in search of a problem. There are very few scenarios were someone legitimately (and more importantly, frequently) requires sending a package to the other side of the world within minutes. Would it be nice? Perhaps... but just as Concord found out, after the novelty wears off, few actually want to drop $10K on a one way ticket. With huge amounts of money being transferred, the delays are in fact a feature. It gives you time to cancel if there was a mistake... and it gives banks opportunity to sniff out fraud/laundering, that the money is in-fact real and not pending other transactions, etc. I've just never heard of a scenario where someone needed $50k instantly sent anywhere for anything. When dealing with that amount of money, in a non-reversible/permanent system... being careful, deliberate and slow is pretty much what you want. Even Bitcoin transfers are not instant...
  - leetcrew 6y ago
    > I've just never heard of a scenario where someone needed $50k instantly sent anywhere for anything. maybe not $50k, but "deposit paycheck on same day rent is due" is a fairly common problem that people have. the person has the money to pay rent, but it might not clear before their rent check bounces. there still exist landlords that only accept payment via check. I agree in general. wires are fast enough for most truly large transfers of money, if only because the recipient is usually willing to be more flexible with such a large amount on the line.
    - Alupis 6y ago
      It's been quite some time, but every landlord I had which required a check only required having the physical check in-hand by the 1st (or more commonly by the 5th if it was being mailed). If you're bouncing rent checks because it took too long to clear, you have other issues and immediate withdrawal isn't going to save you anyway. Besides, if you're cutting checks of the same amount every month, you can setup BillPay (free at most/all? banks) and let your bank handle writing/mailing the check on time.
      - leetcrew 6y ago
        > If you're bouncing rent checks because it took too long to clear, you have other issues and immediate withdrawal isn't going to save you anyway. I'm talking about people who barely make enough money to cover their monthly expenses, so yeah that financial situation is hardly ideal. someone in this situation definitely does not want to set up autopay against their checking account. it's a sort of death by a thousand cuts for people in this situation. you generally have to pay rent in advance (ie, you pay that month's rent on the first of the month). you get "paid" at the end of a two week period, but then it takes about a week for your employer to process payroll. if your employer doesn't do direct deposit, you now have a check in hand that takes about two days to clear. that two days isn't the bulk of the problem, but it can definitely be the straw that breaks the camel's back.
    - notyourday 6y ago
      > but "deposit paycheck on same day rent is due" is a fairly common problem that people have. the person has the money to pay rent, but it might not clear before their rent check bounces. there still exist landlords that only accept payment via check. Two things: 1. For paper checks, this has been addressed via Check21 which took effect at the end of 2004. It enforces funds availability for even for non-local checks and/or bank drafts. 2. Writing a check against an account that does not have available funds has all the characteristics of check kiting. Check kiting is illegal. For non-checks ACH credits settle before ACH debits or any other debit transactions.
  - kuschku 6y ago
    The EU now requires 15'000€ transfers in under 2 minutes and less than 1,50€ fees, and any other transfers in under 24 hours for free (for non-commercial customers).
    - Alupis 6y ago
      What do they mean by "transfer"? I can transfer money to a friend for lunch instantly already, using a plethora of apps such as PayPal, Cash, Venmo, etc. Or, if I write a check, and they deposit it on their bank's phone app, nearly always the funds are available immediately. $15,000 Euros is a lot of money... I honestly wonder what problem was solved by mandating that amount of money must be transferred, cleared, and available for withdrawal within 2 minutes. It seems to me nobody has a legitimate reason for that, unless you're a Nigerian Prince. What problem did it solve and why is it considered a good thing?
      - tialaramex 6y ago
        €15000 (we have a whole symbol for the Euro) isn't that much money. You definitely might buy a second hand car for that much, and I don't want to give you the keys until the money appears in my account, even if legally you'd have "stolen" it if your money wasn't good, that's a huge hassle. And I've certainly sent somewhat smaller amounts for stuff like "Hey trip is on, we booked that holiday villa, €1000 for single rooms, €800 each if you're sharing, let me know if you can't pay this week". I'm sure this rule would have been fine if it was €10 000 rather than €15 000 but how often do you want politicians to re-authorise? If it was €1000 by now people would be annoyed at the size limit already.
        Alupis 6y ago
        > €15000 (we have a whole symbol for the Euro) I don't have one on my keyboard unfortunately, otherwise I'd happily use it where appropriate! > And I've certainly sent somewhat smaller amounts for stuff like "Hey trip is on, we booked that holiday villa, €1000 for single rooms, €800 each if you're sharing, let me know if you can't pay this week". Your scenario doesn't seem to have been impacted by 2 minute mandatory transfer times in either direction. > I'm sure this rule would have been fine if it was €10 000 rather than €15 000 but how often do you want politicians to re-authorise? If it was €1000 by now people would be annoyed at the size limit already. Sure it's an arbitrary amount and they had to pick some amount I suppose. Even $10K is a lot for an ordinary person - potentially life changing if lost in some unfortunate instant transfer with the wrong number entered. That, of course, is a human problem (typing wrong number or whatever), but the delays we're talking about provide a safety cushion to cancel transactions in those scenarios.
  - xur17 6y ago
    When you are sending with a credit card, you are not sending it anywhere near "instantly". The receiving end pays a 2-3% fee, and doesn't actually get access to the funds for anywhere from a few days to a month later. And even once they receive the money, it can be clawed back if it's fraudulent, was done with a stolen card, etc.
- coding123 6y ago
  > What I want.. what I want is for people to stop accepting the world as it is just because it is in this set up in this particular configuration. I want people to realize that they can actually shape the world to fit their needs. The more I do that - the more I want to go off into a corner and plant shit in the ground and stay the hell away from people. They are super dangerous. And honestly, I can shape the world exactly the way I want by doing it that way. In all other efforts where people are involved, trying that for 42 years and it hasn't worked well yet.

A4ET8a8uTh0 6y ago

What I want.. what I want is for people to stop accepting the world as it is just because it is in this set up in this particular configuration. I want people to realize that they can actually shape the world to fit their needs. That is what I want. And if you really tried to use credit/debit card for those purposes, you quickly understand their limitations ( amounts come to mind ).

Alupis 6y ago
What scenario do you need to instantly send more than a credit card limit? Sounds like you're talking big money, $10,000+ type of transfers. This is very much so like the entire cargo/freight "Hyper-Loop" thing, or Rocketship cargo/freight, or even the Supersonic Aircraft thing... a solution in search of a problem. There are very few scenarios were someone legitimately (and more importantly, frequently) requires sending a package to the other side of the world within minutes. Would it be nice? Perhaps... but just as Concord found out, after the novelty wears off, few actually want to drop $10K on a one way ticket. With huge amounts of money being transferred, the delays are in fact a feature. It gives you time to cancel if there was a mistake... and it gives banks opportunity to sniff out fraud/laundering, that the money is in-fact real and not pending other transactions, etc. I've just never heard of a scenario where someone needed $50k instantly sent anywhere for anything. When dealing with that amount of money, in a non-reversible/permanent system... being careful, deliberate and slow is pretty much what you want. Even Bitcoin transfers are not instant...
- leetcrew 6y ago
  > I've just never heard of a scenario where someone needed $50k instantly sent anywhere for anything. maybe not $50k, but "deposit paycheck on same day rent is due" is a fairly common problem that people have. the person has the money to pay rent, but it might not clear before their rent check bounces. there still exist landlords that only accept payment via check. I agree in general. wires are fast enough for most truly large transfers of money, if only because the recipient is usually willing to be more flexible with such a large amount on the line.
  - Alupis 6y ago
    It's been quite some time, but every landlord I had which required a check only required having the physical check in-hand by the 1st (or more commonly by the 5th if it was being mailed). If you're bouncing rent checks because it took too long to clear, you have other issues and immediate withdrawal isn't going to save you anyway. Besides, if you're cutting checks of the same amount every month, you can setup BillPay (free at most/all? banks) and let your bank handle writing/mailing the check on time.
    - leetcrew 6y ago
      > If you're bouncing rent checks because it took too long to clear, you have other issues and immediate withdrawal isn't going to save you anyway. I'm talking about people who barely make enough money to cover their monthly expenses, so yeah that financial situation is hardly ideal. someone in this situation definitely does not want to set up autopay against their checking account. it's a sort of death by a thousand cuts for people in this situation. you generally have to pay rent in advance (ie, you pay that month's rent on the first of the month). you get "paid" at the end of a two week period, but then it takes about a week for your employer to process payroll. if your employer doesn't do direct deposit, you now have a check in hand that takes about two days to clear. that two days isn't the bulk of the problem, but it can definitely be the straw that breaks the camel's back.
  - notyourday 6y ago
    > but "deposit paycheck on same day rent is due" is a fairly common problem that people have. the person has the money to pay rent, but it might not clear before their rent check bounces. there still exist landlords that only accept payment via check. Two things: 1. For paper checks, this has been addressed via Check21 which took effect at the end of 2004. It enforces funds availability for even for non-local checks and/or bank drafts. 2. Writing a check against an account that does not have available funds has all the characteristics of check kiting. Check kiting is illegal. For non-checks ACH credits settle before ACH debits or any other debit transactions.
- kuschku 6y ago
  The EU now requires 15'000€ transfers in under 2 minutes and less than 1,50€ fees, and any other transfers in under 24 hours for free (for non-commercial customers).
  - Alupis 6y ago
    What do they mean by "transfer"? I can transfer money to a friend for lunch instantly already, using a plethora of apps such as PayPal, Cash, Venmo, etc. Or, if I write a check, and they deposit it on their bank's phone app, nearly always the funds are available immediately. $15,000 Euros is a lot of money... I honestly wonder what problem was solved by mandating that amount of money must be transferred, cleared, and available for withdrawal within 2 minutes. It seems to me nobody has a legitimate reason for that, unless you're a Nigerian Prince. What problem did it solve and why is it considered a good thing?
    - tialaramex 6y ago
      €15000 (we have a whole symbol for the Euro) isn't that much money. You definitely might buy a second hand car for that much, and I don't want to give you the keys until the money appears in my account, even if legally you'd have "stolen" it if your money wasn't good, that's a huge hassle. And I've certainly sent somewhat smaller amounts for stuff like "Hey trip is on, we booked that holiday villa, €1000 for single rooms, €800 each if you're sharing, let me know if you can't pay this week". I'm sure this rule would have been fine if it was €10 000 rather than €15 000 but how often do you want politicians to re-authorise? If it was €1000 by now people would be annoyed at the size limit already.
      - Alupis 6y ago
        > €15000 (we have a whole symbol for the Euro) I don't have one on my keyboard unfortunately, otherwise I'd happily use it where appropriate! > And I've certainly sent somewhat smaller amounts for stuff like "Hey trip is on, we booked that holiday villa, €1000 for single rooms, €800 each if you're sharing, let me know if you can't pay this week". Your scenario doesn't seem to have been impacted by 2 minute mandatory transfer times in either direction. > I'm sure this rule would have been fine if it was €10 000 rather than €15 000 but how often do you want politicians to re-authorise? If it was €1000 by now people would be annoyed at the size limit already. Sure it's an arbitrary amount and they had to pick some amount I suppose. Even $10K is a lot for an ordinary person - potentially life changing if lost in some unfortunate instant transfer with the wrong number entered. That, of course, is a human problem (typing wrong number or whatever), but the delays we're talking about provide a safety cushion to cancel transactions in those scenarios.
- xur17 6y ago
  When you are sending with a credit card, you are not sending it anywhere near "instantly". The receiving end pays a 2-3% fee, and doesn't actually get access to the funds for anywhere from a few days to a month later. And even once they receive the money, it can be clawed back if it's fraudulent, was done with a stolen card, etc.
coding123 6y ago
> What I want.. what I want is for people to stop accepting the world as it is just because it is in this set up in this particular configuration. I want people to realize that they can actually shape the world to fit their needs. The more I do that - the more I want to go off into a corner and plant shit in the ground and stay the hell away from people. They are super dangerous. And honestly, I can shape the world exactly the way I want by doing it that way. In all other efforts where people are involved, trying that for 42 years and it hasn't worked well yet.