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> Has she tried sending a wire outside of US lately? Costs at most about $35 for any size wire, shows up in a corresponding bank within a day. If the correspon

> Has she tried sending a wire outside of US lately? Costs at most about $35 for any size wire, shows up in a corresponding bank within a day. If the corresponding bank is not the ultimate destination, takes whatever the amount of time it takes for the end transaction to complete. In event of a bank mess up on a transfer, the wire gets rejected/credited back. For banks that do "online" FedWire rather than batched, wires show up and are credited within seconds. What, exactly, is the problem? P.S. Non-immediate transfer is a feature and not a bug.

A4ET8a8uTh0 6y ago
I don't want to presume, but what you are describing is a theory of how it is supposed to work. That theory holds up for a majority (~80%+ depending on an institution - I am not willing to make more specific statements ) of wires, but remaining 20% can be held up for a variety of reasons ranging from fraud investigation, AML, or OFAC. For those 20% the banking system as it is right now, is a problem. edit: "P.S. Non-immediate transfer is a feature and not a bug. " That may have been true/acceptable before - back when time span between order and payment was greater. If it is a feature, it is a feature for the bank, not the user.
- notyourday 6y ago
  > but remaining 20% can held up for a variety of reasons ranging from fraud investigation, AML, or OFAC. For those 20% the banking system as it is right now, is a problem. AML, OFAC will absolutely take time and no interbank transfer would bypass it in any US chartered bank as they are triggered during a match in the FedWire or any other system that uses the Fed. KYC and fraud investigations are triggered by the originating bank, most likely because the account has been flagged. Until the account is cleared any transfers out of the account would trigger them and delay them. KYC-type and fraud investigations could also be triggered by the receiving bank if the account is either flagged or the activity is matching certain parameters - it is less likely but possible. Should that happen, no matter what is the method that was used to credit the account is likely to trigger it. > For those 20% the banking system as it is right now, is a problem. That makes it 1 out of 5 wires. It is extremely unlikely to be the case. > That may have been true/acceptable before, where time span between order and payment was greater. If it is a feature, it is a feature for the bank, not the user. It absolutely is a feature to the user - it allows for an easy rollback of journaling mistakes.
  - A4ET8a8uTh0 6y ago
    1 in 5 seems like a high proportion to me. I will admit that I find it mildly aggravating that people wave away a genuine complaint with 'it only happens in 1 out of 5 cases'. Is it an acceptable ratio? Would we accept a plane that lands for non-routine issue 1 out of 5 times? >> That makes it 1 out of 5 wires. It is extremely unlikely to be the case. I don't think I could honestly qualify 1 out of 5 with adverb extremely. Even unlikely feels like a stretch. Let me give you an example, if you submitted your taxes online and before you submitted it, it gave you a chance percentage of an audit, would you roll the dice at 20%? >> It absolutely is a feature to the user - it allows for an easy rollback of journaling mistakes. Having dealt with those mistakes, I still maintain that it is there cover the bank.
    - notyourday 6y ago
      > I don't think I could honestly qualify 1 out of 5 with adverb extremely. Even unlikely feels like a stretch. Let me give you an example, if you submitted your taxes online and before you submitted it, it gave you a chance percentage of an audit, would you roll the dice at 20%? There's no such thing as 20% of international wires that get delayed. American brokers do hundreds of thousands of international wire transfers every day. If 20% of those were delayed, it would collapse the global financial system.
      - A4ET8a8uTh0 6y ago
        You statements appear to be taken from various institution's brochures ( ranging from $35 wire transfer cost - international, which is what we were discussing, wire average cost is higher ; "shows up in a corresponding bank within a day" - technically true, but virtually meaningless to a sender/recipient ). They are also very definitive, matter-of-fact and made with aura of conviction, but allow me to quote to you stating the following. "P.S. Non-immediate transfer is a feature and not a bug. " Since we are playing with words, non-immediate transfer is a delay and it is at odds at the other statement you have made: "If 20% of those were delayed, it would collapse the global financial system. " It wouldn't, because it didn't. But clearly that part doesn't matter, because entities and individuals affected tend not to be well-heeled and so unlikely to be able to force the bank to take some sort of action. All that said, I am done discussing this.
- packetlost 6y ago
  If you need to send payments instantly, there are many other options out there, not the least of which is credit/debit card which is virtually instant and used... *everywhere*. What exactly do you want here?
  - A4ET8a8uTh0 6y ago
    What I want.. what I want is for people to stop accepting the world as it is just because it is in this set up in this particular configuration. I want people to realize that they can actually shape the world to fit their needs. That is what I want. And if you really tried to use credit/debit card for those purposes, you quickly understand their limitations ( amounts come to mind ).
    - Alupis 6y ago
      What scenario do you need to instantly send more than a credit card limit? Sounds like you're talking big money, $10,000+ type of transfers. This is very much so like the entire cargo/freight "Hyper-Loop" thing, or Rocketship cargo/freight, or even the Supersonic Aircraft thing... a solution in search of a problem. There are very few scenarios were someone legitimately (and more importantly, frequently) requires sending a package to the other side of the world within minutes. Would it be nice? Perhaps... but just as Concord found out, after the novelty wears off, few actually want to drop $10K on a one way ticket. With huge amounts of money being transferred, the delays are in fact a feature. It gives you time to cancel if there was a mistake... and it gives banks opportunity to sniff out fraud/laundering, that the money is in-fact real and not pending other transactions, etc. I've just never heard of a scenario where someone needed $50k instantly sent anywhere for anything. When dealing with that amount of money, in a non-reversible/permanent system... being careful, deliberate and slow is pretty much what you want. Even Bitcoin transfers are not instant...
      - leetcrew 6y ago
        > I've just never heard of a scenario where someone needed $50k instantly sent anywhere for anything. maybe not $50k, but "deposit paycheck on same day rent is due" is a fairly common problem that people have. the person has the money to pay rent, but it might not clear before their rent check bounces. there still exist landlords that only accept payment via check. I agree in general. wires are fast enough for most truly large transfers of money, if only because the recipient is usually willing to be more flexible with such a large amount on the line.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
centimeter 6y ago
This is 10000% bullshit. Everyone on here says "oh yeah, it's easy to send a wire anywhere in the world", but as someone who's actually spent decades living abroad as a US citizen, this couldn't be further from the truth. International banking never works the way it's supposed to. Shit always inexplicably gets delayed, or canceled, or fails for some obscure reason that requires spending 9 hours on the phone with clueless customer support monkeys. There have actually been a few times where non of my bank cards (chase, bofa, credit union) work for cash withdrawal and I've used a Bitcoin ATM to get cash until I could get something figured out.
- notyourday 6y ago
  > Everyone on here says "oh yeah, it's easy to send a wire anywhere in the world", but as someone who's actually spent decades living abroad as a US citizen, this couldn't be further from the truth. That's simply not the case as someone who authorizes or validates wire transfers for the companies would be able to confirm. > There have actually been a few times where non of my bank cards (chase, bofa, credit union) work for cash withdrawal and I've used a Bitcoin ATM to get cash until I could get something figured out. There have been several orders of magnitude more cases where standard bank cards worked in the ATMs and bitcoin ATMs did not.
  - centimeter 6y ago
    I’m not a company, I’m a person. International wires probably work better if you have accountants to hammer out the bullshit. I’ve never had a Bitcoin ATM fail, but I’ve had normal ATMs fail all the time even in first world countries like Japan, HK, Singapore.
Niksko 6y ago
> Costs at most $35 Well there's your problem. Where is that $35 heading? For a $35 transaction fee, I'd expect my money to arrive instantly and to work reliably. Sounds like that's pretty far from the truth. I'm sure there are a hundred reasons why it's not that simple and it needs to cost a lot of money, but fundamentally, you're decrementing a number in one bank and incrementing a number in another. I can see why people would want that to be cheap, fast, and reliable given that it's a pretty simple thing to accomplish on the internet.
- notyourday 6y ago
  > Well there's your problem. Where is that $35 heading? For a $35 transaction fee, I'd expect my money to arrive instantly and to work reliably. Sounds like that's pretty far from the truth. The bank charges the service fee. It ranges from $0.00 to about $35.00 > I can see why people would want that to be cheap, fast, and reliable given that it's a pretty simple thing to accomplish on the internet. International wire transfer is, at most, a settlement service for payments, not a payment service.
kaishiro 6y ago
As someone who has been living abroad for the better part of a decade, this is simply not consistently true, no matter how much you want to beat your chest about it.
- notyourday 6y ago
  If you are having a problem wiring from the US banks to the "abroad banks" while living abroad it is clear that you do not give a shit about it as if you are banking with the first tier foreign banks ( i.e. banks that have correspondent accounts with the US financial institutions such as JPM Chase, Bank of America, Citi, HSBS, Wells Fargo, etc ) it would be the case.

A4ET8a8uTh0 6y ago

I don't want to presume, but what you are describing is a theory of how it is supposed to work. That theory holds up for a majority (~80%+ depending on an institution - I am not willing to make more specific statements ) of wires, but remaining 20% can be held up for a variety of reasons ranging from fraud investigation, AML, or OFAC. For those 20% the banking system as it is right now, is a problem. edit: "P.S. Non-immediate transfer is a feature and not a bug. " That may have been true/acceptable before - back when time span between order and payment was greater. If it is a feature, it is a feature for the bank, not the user.

notyourday 6y ago
> but remaining 20% can held up for a variety of reasons ranging from fraud investigation, AML, or OFAC. For those 20% the banking system as it is right now, is a problem. AML, OFAC will absolutely take time and no interbank transfer would bypass it in any US chartered bank as they are triggered during a match in the FedWire or any other system that uses the Fed. KYC and fraud investigations are triggered by the originating bank, most likely because the account has been flagged. Until the account is cleared any transfers out of the account would trigger them and delay them. KYC-type and fraud investigations could also be triggered by the receiving bank if the account is either flagged or the activity is matching certain parameters - it is less likely but possible. Should that happen, no matter what is the method that was used to credit the account is likely to trigger it. > For those 20% the banking system as it is right now, is a problem. That makes it 1 out of 5 wires. It is extremely unlikely to be the case. > That may have been true/acceptable before, where time span between order and payment was greater. If it is a feature, it is a feature for the bank, not the user. It absolutely is a feature to the user - it allows for an easy rollback of journaling mistakes.
- A4ET8a8uTh0 6y ago
  1 in 5 seems like a high proportion to me. I will admit that I find it mildly aggravating that people wave away a genuine complaint with 'it only happens in 1 out of 5 cases'. Is it an acceptable ratio? Would we accept a plane that lands for non-routine issue 1 out of 5 times? >> That makes it 1 out of 5 wires. It is extremely unlikely to be the case. I don't think I could honestly qualify 1 out of 5 with adverb extremely. Even unlikely feels like a stretch. Let me give you an example, if you submitted your taxes online and before you submitted it, it gave you a chance percentage of an audit, would you roll the dice at 20%? >> It absolutely is a feature to the user - it allows for an easy rollback of journaling mistakes. Having dealt with those mistakes, I still maintain that it is there cover the bank.
  - notyourday 6y ago
    > I don't think I could honestly qualify 1 out of 5 with adverb extremely. Even unlikely feels like a stretch. Let me give you an example, if you submitted your taxes online and before you submitted it, it gave you a chance percentage of an audit, would you roll the dice at 20%? There's no such thing as 20% of international wires that get delayed. American brokers do hundreds of thousands of international wire transfers every day. If 20% of those were delayed, it would collapse the global financial system.
    - A4ET8a8uTh0 6y ago
      You statements appear to be taken from various institution's brochures ( ranging from $35 wire transfer cost - international, which is what we were discussing, wire average cost is higher ; "shows up in a corresponding bank within a day" - technically true, but virtually meaningless to a sender/recipient ). They are also very definitive, matter-of-fact and made with aura of conviction, but allow me to quote to you stating the following. "P.S. Non-immediate transfer is a feature and not a bug. " Since we are playing with words, non-immediate transfer is a delay and it is at odds at the other statement you have made: "If 20% of those were delayed, it would collapse the global financial system. " It wouldn't, because it didn't. But clearly that part doesn't matter, because entities and individuals affected tend not to be well-heeled and so unlikely to be able to force the bank to take some sort of action. All that said, I am done discussing this.
packetlost 6y ago
If you need to send payments instantly, there are many other options out there, not the least of which is credit/debit card which is virtually instant and used... *everywhere*. What exactly do you want here?
- A4ET8a8uTh0 6y ago
  What I want.. what I want is for people to stop accepting the world as it is just because it is in this set up in this particular configuration. I want people to realize that they can actually shape the world to fit their needs. That is what I want. And if you really tried to use credit/debit card for those purposes, you quickly understand their limitations ( amounts come to mind ).
  - Alupis 6y ago
    What scenario do you need to instantly send more than a credit card limit? Sounds like you're talking big money, $10,000+ type of transfers. This is very much so like the entire cargo/freight "Hyper-Loop" thing, or Rocketship cargo/freight, or even the Supersonic Aircraft thing... a solution in search of a problem. There are very few scenarios were someone legitimately (and more importantly, frequently) requires sending a package to the other side of the world within minutes. Would it be nice? Perhaps... but just as Concord found out, after the novelty wears off, few actually want to drop $10K on a one way ticket. With huge amounts of money being transferred, the delays are in fact a feature. It gives you time to cancel if there was a mistake... and it gives banks opportunity to sniff out fraud/laundering, that the money is in-fact real and not pending other transactions, etc. I've just never heard of a scenario where someone needed $50k instantly sent anywhere for anything. When dealing with that amount of money, in a non-reversible/permanent system... being careful, deliberate and slow is pretty much what you want. Even Bitcoin transfers are not instant...
    - leetcrew 6y ago
      > I've just never heard of a scenario where someone needed $50k instantly sent anywhere for anything. maybe not $50k, but "deposit paycheck on same day rent is due" is a fairly common problem that people have. the person has the money to pay rent, but it might not clear before their rent check bounces. there still exist landlords that only accept payment via check. I agree in general. wires are fast enough for most truly large transfers of money, if only because the recipient is usually willing to be more flexible with such a large amount on the line.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

centimeter 6y ago

This is 10000% bullshit. Everyone on here says "oh yeah, it's easy to send a wire anywhere in the world", but as someone who's actually spent decades living abroad as a US citizen, this couldn't be further from the truth. International banking never works the way it's supposed to. Shit always inexplicably gets delayed, or canceled, or fails for some obscure reason that requires spending 9 hours on the phone with clueless customer support monkeys. There have actually been a few times where non of my bank cards (chase, bofa, credit union) work for cash withdrawal and I've used a Bitcoin ATM to get cash until I could get something figured out.

notyourday 6y ago
> Everyone on here says "oh yeah, it's easy to send a wire anywhere in the world", but as someone who's actually spent decades living abroad as a US citizen, this couldn't be further from the truth. That's simply not the case as someone who authorizes or validates wire transfers for the companies would be able to confirm. > There have actually been a few times where non of my bank cards (chase, bofa, credit union) work for cash withdrawal and I've used a Bitcoin ATM to get cash until I could get something figured out. There have been several orders of magnitude more cases where standard bank cards worked in the ATMs and bitcoin ATMs did not.
- centimeter 6y ago
  I’m not a company, I’m a person. International wires probably work better if you have accountants to hammer out the bullshit. I’ve never had a Bitcoin ATM fail, but I’ve had normal ATMs fail all the time even in first world countries like Japan, HK, Singapore.

Niksko 6y ago

> Costs at most $35 Well there's your problem. Where is that $35 heading? For a $35 transaction fee, I'd expect my money to arrive instantly and to work reliably. Sounds like that's pretty far from the truth. I'm sure there are a hundred reasons why it's not that simple and it needs to cost a lot of money, but fundamentally, you're decrementing a number in one bank and incrementing a number in another. I can see why people would want that to be cheap, fast, and reliable given that it's a pretty simple thing to accomplish on the internet.

notyourday 6y ago
> Well there's your problem. Where is that $35 heading? For a $35 transaction fee, I'd expect my money to arrive instantly and to work reliably. Sounds like that's pretty far from the truth. The bank charges the service fee. It ranges from $0.00 to about $35.00 > I can see why people would want that to be cheap, fast, and reliable given that it's a pretty simple thing to accomplish on the internet. International wire transfer is, at most, a settlement service for payments, not a payment service.

kaishiro 6y ago

As someone who has been living abroad for the better part of a decade, this is simply not consistently true, no matter how much you want to beat your chest about it.

notyourday 6y ago
If you are having a problem wiring from the US banks to the "abroad banks" while living abroad it is clear that you do not give a shit about it as if you are banking with the first tier foreign banks ( i.e. banks that have correspondent accounts with the US financial institutions such as JPM Chase, Bank of America, Citi, HSBS, Wells Fargo, etc ) it would be the case.