7 ms·

Palantir: NHS faces legal action over data firm contract

54 points by alexrustic 6y ago

readams 6y ago
Sounds like a nuisance lawsuit over a minor technical issue involving filling a report. No wrongdoing seems to be even alleged, other than Palantir being a tech firm and therefore evil.
- HugoDresden 6y ago
  Now now, Palantir are perfectly capable of simultaneously being a tech firm and being evil, no therefore required.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
TaupeRanger 6y ago
This anonymized data is basically nothing compared to what every social media company has on much larger populations. Smoke but no flame.
- McDev 6y ago
  This is our NHS, not a social media company. You can't compare the two.
  - twirlock 6y ago
    Yeah. Social media companies have actual power and nothing stopping them from giving non-anonymized datasets to secret police.
  - elindbe3 6y ago
    You're right, social media is worse because it extends to all aspects of life, not just health.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
jrsj 6y ago
Anyone else find it a little disturbing that the guy that runs Palantir in the UK is Oswald Mosley's grandson?
- ben_w 6y ago
  I doubt you’re alone, but personally I don’t blame people for their grandparents. My grandfather on one side was a British civil servant during WW2, my grandfather on the other side was a British soldier in WW1, whereas I moved from the UK to Berlin a couple of years ago and don’t think I’d be any good in either military or government professions.
  - jrsj 6y ago
    If it were any other company I wouldn't think much of it but when they're closely connected to intelligence agencies & the founder has openly expressed anti-democratic ideas the number of creepy coincidences at least makes me curious. Definitely not saying there's anything to any of it either way though.
- Zenst 6y ago
  Nothing comes to mind - and any crime his farther farther committed was paid for in a court of law. Was there something specific I'm missing? Maybe of more interest https://investors.palantir.com/governance/board-of-directors/default.aspx https://investors.palantir.com/governance/board-of-directors...
  - jrsj 6y ago
    I'm not saying there's anything there but it does come across as a bit ominous when someone w/ that connection is essentially working for a guy who openly said "I no longer believe that freedom and democracy are compatible." It at least makes me wonder if this selection was intentional & what the relationship between the two & the intelligence communities of both the U.S. and the U.K. are
    - Zenst 6y ago
turnerc 6y ago
It's worth nothing that the Datastore in question has undergone a Data Protection Impact assessment[1] which states that this information Palantir has access to will be in anonymised form and even aggregated. In fact its non-anonymised data never hits the "Datastore" (Palantir Foundry) or leaves NHS Systems. Morally sketchy extension to the contract? Yes. Illegal? No. [1] https://www.england.nhs.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/202004-DPIA-NHS-COVID19-data-store-v1.4.pdf https://www.england.nhs.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/202004... Edit: Corrected Palantir will have access to data, not be given it.
- LatteLazy 6y ago
  It's not really possible anonymise health data. If you know someone's DoB, Sex and ZipCode you can identify something like 87% of Americans from publicly available sources [0]. This is why sharing even redacted datasets isn't generally done. [0] https://www.wired.com/2007/12/why-anonymous-data-sometimes-isnt/ https://www.wired.com/2007/12/why-anonymous-data-sometimes-i... Edited to correct the star (89->87, also Americans not Brits, I thought it was Brits)
  - turnerc 6y ago
    It's certainly possible to do, whether or not the controls are in place to prevent re-identification is a different matter... The document I linked says they do have these controls in place but having done my fair slog in the NHS I'm doubtful.
    - LatteLazy 6y ago
      The best I can see from there pdf is that the data will be "pseudonymised". Maybe I'm misreading it... I'll be impressed if there is some clever mathematical process to truly anonymise it!
      - MaxBarraclough 6y ago
        I'm reminded of Schneier's Law: Any person can invent a security system so clever that he or she can't imagine a way of breaking it. Does something similar apply here? Can it be formally proven that there's no way to de-anonymise the data?
maxrev17 6y ago
Probably one of the cheaper and more effective NHS tech spends.
- LatteLazy 6y ago
  The NHS is about the most cost efficient health system in the developed world. https://www.bmj.com/content/367/bmj.l6326?__cf_chl_jschl_tk__=91966448a96d0183561e6ab8e5701083834a0b07-1614208326-0-AfhNqUTDck40Mp1ZjL_E9MaWIwbc8lQNJNdJeUos6pM-rbjJ4hsrkCZI0f21NAfuCfRAZQmoBfoLBY1yaggE1qAp2PCuNK1w8UOviowFzK3foSkIFZNlFE5k9eHh1EMmMfjHllrsvZTqHm8lD978jFcu4laLK8qrY0UtmhF9J_ijBfgCIFT3fyTeYBXtv_uDvcxA3VwrYuuDofJT9bo4_ngaWRRyIMXWeoJYmWyk7bUmEtF2_DNrIzBH9gNSElZRkiHEiUQ9afD1CYMVXYUGjOwJGAMxTIapuXpNvqlI2rheLyUbAr0lfZcIloidSbtReOLBJxf-cIpLpUi6nl5K5qI https://www.bmj.com/content/367/bmj.l6326?__cf_chl_jschl_tk_...
  - DanBC 6y ago
    Yes, but people are still recovering from Connecting for Health and care.data https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Care.data https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Care.data
KDJohnBrown 6y ago
If we ever have a government which cares about people, the founders, employees and lobbyists for Palantir will be imprisoned for crimes against humanity.
- turnerc 6y ago
  Imprisoning unwitting employees... that's a new low
  - KDJohnBrown 6y ago
    “We were doing our jobs.”
danhak 6y ago
This article seems to me an extremely negative spin on a business relationship that appears to have progressed in a very standard way: - Palantir's U.K. head of sales meets with NHS Chief in 2019 over dinner. Apparently there were some fancy cocktails involved...how sensational! - Pandemic rolls around; Palantir--among other tech companies--awarded contract to do data analytics work on early Covid response - Palantir's contract now extended. Ostensibly NHS is pleased with their work?

54 points by alexrustic 6y ago

Sounds like a nuisance lawsuit over a minor technical issue involving filling a report. No wrongdoing seems to be even alleged, other than Palantir being a tech firm and therefore evil.

HugoDresden 6y ago
Now now, Palantir are perfectly capable of simultaneously being a tech firm and being evil, no therefore required.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

TaupeRanger 6y ago

This anonymized data is basically nothing compared to what every social media company has on much larger populations. Smoke but no flame.

McDev 6y ago
This is our NHS, not a social media company. You can't compare the two.
- twirlock 6y ago
  Yeah. Social media companies have actual power and nothing stopping them from giving non-anonymized datasets to secret police.
- elindbe3 6y ago
  You're right, social media is worse because it extends to all aspects of life, not just health.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

jrsj 6y ago

Anyone else find it a little disturbing that the guy that runs Palantir in the UK is Oswald Mosley's grandson?

ben_w 6y ago
I doubt you’re alone, but personally I don’t blame people for their grandparents. My grandfather on one side was a British civil servant during WW2, my grandfather on the other side was a British soldier in WW1, whereas I moved from the UK to Berlin a couple of years ago and don’t think I’d be any good in either military or government professions.
- jrsj 6y ago
  If it were any other company I wouldn't think much of it but when they're closely connected to intelligence agencies & the founder has openly expressed anti-democratic ideas the number of creepy coincidences at least makes me curious. Definitely not saying there's anything to any of it either way though.
Zenst 6y ago
Nothing comes to mind - and any crime his farther farther committed was paid for in a court of law. Was there something specific I'm missing? Maybe of more interest https://investors.palantir.com/governance/board-of-directors/default.aspx https://investors.palantir.com/governance/board-of-directors...
- jrsj 6y ago
  I'm not saying there's anything there but it does come across as a bit ominous when someone w/ that connection is essentially working for a guy who openly said "I no longer believe that freedom and democracy are compatible." It at least makes me wonder if this selection was intentional & what the relationship between the two & the intelligence communities of both the U.S. and the U.K. are
  - Zenst 6y ago

turnerc 6y ago

It's worth nothing that the Datastore in question has undergone a Data Protection Impact assessment[1] which states that this information Palantir has access to will be in anonymised form and even aggregated. In fact its non-anonymised data never hits the "Datastore" (Palantir Foundry) or leaves NHS Systems. Morally sketchy extension to the contract? Yes. Illegal? No. [1] https://www.england.nhs.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/202004-DPIA-NHS-COVID19-data-store-v1.4.pdf https://www.england.nhs.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/202004... Edit: Corrected Palantir will have access to data, not be given it.

LatteLazy 6y ago
It's not really possible anonymise health data. If you know someone's DoB, Sex and ZipCode you can identify something like 87% of Americans from publicly available sources [0]. This is why sharing even redacted datasets isn't generally done. [0] https://www.wired.com/2007/12/why-anonymous-data-sometimes-isnt/ https://www.wired.com/2007/12/why-anonymous-data-sometimes-i... Edited to correct the star (89->87, also Americans not Brits, I thought it was Brits)
- turnerc 6y ago
  It's certainly possible to do, whether or not the controls are in place to prevent re-identification is a different matter... The document I linked says they do have these controls in place but having done my fair slog in the NHS I'm doubtful.
  - LatteLazy 6y ago
    The best I can see from there pdf is that the data will be "pseudonymised". Maybe I'm misreading it... I'll be impressed if there is some clever mathematical process to truly anonymise it!
    - MaxBarraclough 6y ago
      I'm reminded of Schneier's Law: Any person can invent a security system so clever that he or she can't imagine a way of breaking it. Does something similar apply here? Can it be formally proven that there's no way to de-anonymise the data?

maxrev17 6y ago

Probably one of the cheaper and more effective NHS tech spends.

LatteLazy 6y ago
The NHS is about the most cost efficient health system in the developed world. https://www.bmj.com/content/367/bmj.l6326?__cf_chl_jschl_tk__=91966448a96d0183561e6ab8e5701083834a0b07-1614208326-0-AfhNqUTDck40Mp1ZjL_E9MaWIwbc8lQNJNdJeUos6pM-rbjJ4hsrkCZI0f21NAfuCfRAZQmoBfoLBY1yaggE1qAp2PCuNK1w8UOviowFzK3foSkIFZNlFE5k9eHh1EMmMfjHllrsvZTqHm8lD978jFcu4laLK8qrY0UtmhF9J_ijBfgCIFT3fyTeYBXtv_uDvcxA3VwrYuuDofJT9bo4_ngaWRRyIMXWeoJYmWyk7bUmEtF2_DNrIzBH9gNSElZRkiHEiUQ9afD1CYMVXYUGjOwJGAMxTIapuXpNvqlI2rheLyUbAr0lfZcIloidSbtReOLBJxf-cIpLpUi6nl5K5qI https://www.bmj.com/content/367/bmj.l6326?__cf_chl_jschl_tk_...
- DanBC 6y ago
  Yes, but people are still recovering from Connecting for Health and care.data https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Care.data https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Care.data

KDJohnBrown 6y ago

If we ever have a government which cares about people, the founders, employees and lobbyists for Palantir will be imprisoned for crimes against humanity.

turnerc 6y ago
Imprisoning unwitting employees... that's a new low
- KDJohnBrown 6y ago
  “We were doing our jobs.”

danhak 6y ago

This article seems to me an extremely negative spin on a business relationship that appears to have progressed in a very standard way: - Palantir's U.K. head of sales meets with NHS Chief in 2019 over dinner. Apparently there were some fancy cocktails involved...how sensational! - Pandemic rolls around; Palantir--among other tech companies--awarded contract to do data analytics work on early Covid response - Palantir's contract now extended. Ostensibly NHS is pleased with their work?