4 ms·

That still doesn't explain why Liberal MPs voted for the resolution. Presumably Trudeau could have prevented them from voting, or forced abstention.

vkou 6y ago
Because it would have still passed, and they'd look bad in the press.
chrisseaton 6y ago
How would be prevent them from voting or force them to abstain? He doesn't have the power to do that. Also, back-bench MPs speak on behalf of their constituencies more than on behalf of the government.
- macspoofing 6y ago
  >He doesn't have the power to do that. He's the party leader. He can force his will.
  - chrisseaton 6y ago
    You cannot force an MP to vote in any particular way. You can only retaliate afterward.
    - refurb 6y ago
      If I threaten to kick you off a committee and you change your vote as a consequence I just forced you to vote a certain way.
    - shitgoose 6y ago
      They can't force an MP to vote in a particular way, but they can fire them, like O'Tool (leader of CA Conservative party) recently fired Poilievre and Sloan, or Ford (ON PC) fired Roman Baber for dissent.
      - deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
- dleslie 6y ago
  The party whip has that power; the threat is to lose access to committee appointments, cabinet positions, or to even be kicked from the party. Or simply to have the party not adequately fund your re-election campaign.
  - chrisseaton 6y ago
    These things are retaliation. If your only option is to retaliate afterward, then by definition you're not able to force it.
    - vkou 6y ago
      You're arguing semantics. For all intents and purposes, Canadian parties can force their members to vote a particular way. They don't always do so, especially on less important matters.
- refurb 6y ago
  Of course he has that power. Voting party lines is much more of a thing in parliamentary systems. Typically it’s always party line unless they otherwise allow it. And you can be booted from the party for not voting party lines.
  - chrisseaton 6y ago
    > Of course he has that power. This isn't true. > Voting party lines is much more of a thing in parliamentary systems. People choosing to vote party lines, yes. They can boot you out of the party, but they still can't require you to vote a certain way. People choose to vote party lines, but they're not forced to. If you don't vote how your party wants the worst they can do is not let you be in their party any more.
    - refurb 6y ago
      Right. Which means most MPs change their vote so they vote with their party. I mean, if you want to leave you house but I threaten to beat you if you do - does that mean I can’t really stop you from leaving? Seems like I just did.
      - deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
    - macspoofing 6y ago
      I don't understand what you're arguing. In the Westminster System generally, and the Canadian variant specifically, the leader of the party holds immense power. Obviously there is no legal requirement for MPs to vote a certain way, but in practice the party leader, and the whip will force votes it deems important from party members . And yes, getting kicked out of the party or losing cabinet or committee assignments is normal punishment for insubordination. The end result is that MPs are much more disciplined around voting along party lines than, for example, House members are under the American system. In fact, the American Congress is a wild-west compared to the strict discipline you find in the Canadian Parliamentary system. You would never see a Joe Manchin-type of behaviour when a party member breaks ranks to vote against a candidate pushed by the party leader (or whatever the equivalent would be in the Canadian system). That never happens. I suspect that Trudeau in this case wanted to have his cake and eat it to. He allowed a free vote for Liberal MPs while he and leadership abstained. This way he isn't on record one way or the other and therefore limits how pissed China would be, and at the same time limit the amount of criticism he would get from opposition had he forced a particular vote on his MPs.

vkou 6y ago

Because it would have still passed, and they'd look bad in the press.

chrisseaton 6y ago

How would be prevent them from voting or force them to abstain? He doesn't have the power to do that. Also, back-bench MPs speak on behalf of their constituencies more than on behalf of the government.

macspoofing 6y ago
>He doesn't have the power to do that. He's the party leader. He can force his will.
- chrisseaton 6y ago
  You cannot force an MP to vote in any particular way. You can only retaliate afterward.
  - refurb 6y ago
    If I threaten to kick you off a committee and you change your vote as a consequence I just forced you to vote a certain way.
  - shitgoose 6y ago
    They can't force an MP to vote in a particular way, but they can fire them, like O'Tool (leader of CA Conservative party) recently fired Poilievre and Sloan, or Ford (ON PC) fired Roman Baber for dissent.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
dleslie 6y ago
The party whip has that power; the threat is to lose access to committee appointments, cabinet positions, or to even be kicked from the party. Or simply to have the party not adequately fund your re-election campaign.
- chrisseaton 6y ago
  These things are retaliation. If your only option is to retaliate afterward, then by definition you're not able to force it.
  - vkou 6y ago
    You're arguing semantics. For all intents and purposes, Canadian parties can force their members to vote a particular way. They don't always do so, especially on less important matters.
refurb 6y ago
Of course he has that power. Voting party lines is much more of a thing in parliamentary systems. Typically it’s always party line unless they otherwise allow it. And you can be booted from the party for not voting party lines.
- chrisseaton 6y ago
  > Of course he has that power. This isn't true. > Voting party lines is much more of a thing in parliamentary systems. People choosing to vote party lines, yes. They can boot you out of the party, but they still can't require you to vote a certain way. People choose to vote party lines, but they're not forced to. If you don't vote how your party wants the worst they can do is not let you be in their party any more.
  - refurb 6y ago
    Right. Which means most MPs change their vote so they vote with their party. I mean, if you want to leave you house but I threaten to beat you if you do - does that mean I can’t really stop you from leaving? Seems like I just did.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
  - macspoofing 6y ago
    I don't understand what you're arguing. In the Westminster System generally, and the Canadian variant specifically, the leader of the party holds immense power. Obviously there is no legal requirement for MPs to vote a certain way, but in practice the party leader, and the whip will force votes it deems important from party members . And yes, getting kicked out of the party or losing cabinet or committee assignments is normal punishment for insubordination. The end result is that MPs are much more disciplined around voting along party lines than, for example, House members are under the American system. In fact, the American Congress is a wild-west compared to the strict discipline you find in the Canadian Parliamentary system. You would never see a Joe Manchin-type of behaviour when a party member breaks ranks to vote against a candidate pushed by the party leader (or whatever the equivalent would be in the Canadian system). That never happens. I suspect that Trudeau in this case wanted to have his cake and eat it to. He allowed a free vote for Liberal MPs while he and leadership abstained. This way he isn't on record one way or the other and therefore limits how pissed China would be, and at the same time limit the amount of criticism he would get from opposition had he forced a particular vote on his MPs.