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The tribunals are outside of the scope of the normal Canadian justice system and can act entirely in secret; there's no guarantee, really, that they can be coun

The tribunals are outside of the scope of the normal Canadian justice system and can act entirely in secret; there's no guarantee, really, that they can be counted on to agree that such a declaration is within the scope of that clause. We Canadians might not ever know how they ruled, if they ruled at all, and how much it cost us in total.

monkeybutton 6y ago
To me, an average citizen, this sounds absolutely insane. Why is there a need for such secrecy? How does that benefit us?
- ygjb 6y ago
  It generally doesn't. As an example of what kind of things might be kept secret, take a look at the history of softwood lumber disputes and aluminum disputes between Canada and the United States.
jcranmer 6y ago
Again, reading the treaty quickly, I don't see any mention that the tribunals "can act entirely in secret." Actually, to the contrary, Article 28 does lay out: > Where, after consulting with a disputing investor, a disputing Contracting Party determines that it is in the public interest to do so and notifies the Tribunal of that determination, hearings held under this Part shall be open to the public. In other words, the tribunals are really no less secret than any other regular court case.
- dleslie 6y ago
  Article 28 also states: > Any Tribunal award under this Part shall be publicly available, subject to the redaction of confidential information. > To the extent necessary to ensure the protection of confidential information, including business confidential information, the Tribunal may hold portions of hearings in camera. > To the extent that a Tribunal’s confidentiality order designates information as confidential and a Contracting Party’s law on access to information requires public access to that information, the Contracting Party’s law on access to information shall prevail. However, a Contracting Party should endeavour to apply its law on access to information so as to protect information designated confidential by the Tribunal. Article 33 states: > Nothing in this Agreement shall be construed to require a Contracting Party to furnish or allow access to information the disclosure of which would impede law enforcement or would be contrary to the Contracting Party’s law protecting Cabinet confidences, personal privacy or the confidentiality of the financial affairs and accounts of individual customers of financial institutions. That's more than enough rope to hang public access.
  - jcranmer 6y ago
    Have you never seen regular court documents that are redacted or even sealed to protect confidential information? That clause is basically saying the tribunal has the power to do that.
    - dleslie 6y ago
      Yes, I have; often the document is redacted to the point of being worthless for public consideration. IE: https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/commons-law-clerk-we-charity-redactions-1.5702588 https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/commons-law-clerk-we-charit...

monkeybutton 6y ago

To me, an average citizen, this sounds absolutely insane. Why is there a need for such secrecy? How does that benefit us?

ygjb 6y ago
It generally doesn't. As an example of what kind of things might be kept secret, take a look at the history of softwood lumber disputes and aluminum disputes between Canada and the United States.

jcranmer 6y ago

Again, reading the treaty quickly, I don't see any mention that the tribunals "can act entirely in secret." Actually, to the contrary, Article 28 does lay out: > Where, after consulting with a disputing investor, a disputing Contracting Party determines that it is in the public interest to do so and notifies the Tribunal of that determination, hearings held under this Part shall be open to the public. In other words, the tribunals are really no less secret than any other regular court case.

dleslie 6y ago
Article 28 also states: > Any Tribunal award under this Part shall be publicly available, subject to the redaction of confidential information. > To the extent necessary to ensure the protection of confidential information, including business confidential information, the Tribunal may hold portions of hearings in camera. > To the extent that a Tribunal’s confidentiality order designates information as confidential and a Contracting Party’s law on access to information requires public access to that information, the Contracting Party’s law on access to information shall prevail. However, a Contracting Party should endeavour to apply its law on access to information so as to protect information designated confidential by the Tribunal. Article 33 states: > Nothing in this Agreement shall be construed to require a Contracting Party to furnish or allow access to information the disclosure of which would impede law enforcement or would be contrary to the Contracting Party’s law protecting Cabinet confidences, personal privacy or the confidentiality of the financial affairs and accounts of individual customers of financial institutions. That's more than enough rope to hang public access.
- jcranmer 6y ago
  Have you never seen regular court documents that are redacted or even sealed to protect confidential information? That clause is basically saying the tribunal has the power to do that.
  - dleslie 6y ago
    Yes, I have; often the document is redacted to the point of being worthless for public consideration. IE: https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/commons-law-clerk-we-charity-redactions-1.5702588 https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/commons-law-clerk-we-charit...