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"Python is easy to use" is a relative statement about its priorities. Compare to other languages that have different priorities. Python is easier and slower tha

by neolog 6y ago

"Python is easy to use" is a relative statement about its priorities. Compare to other languages that have different priorities. Python is easier and slower than C++, for example. There are many design errors in Python, of course. But most "wtfpython" things don't actually affect people using the language -- they're engineered to identify funny compiler optimizations and floating-point peculiarities. The real problems of a language aren't usually the kind of thing demonstrated in a couple-line snippet. Though there are exceptions.

jolux 6y ago
>Python is easier and slower than C++, for example. Most languages are easier than C++, and many of them are faster than Python.
- neolog 6y ago
  There are many dimensions that different languages prioritize. As you increase the number of dimensions you consider important, the number of languages that are better than $language on all of your important dimensions tends to decrease.
  - jolux 6y ago
    Sure. I have a lot of problems with Python’s design and find it grating, and I don’t think its biggest problems are about tradeoffs, they’re just mistakes.
Izkata 6y ago
> But most "wtfpython" things don't actually affect people using the language Plenty do though. I've passed that page onto co-workers a lot, back when the list was smaller, and almost every time they've found something on the page that explains a bit of weirdness with Python that they'd just dismissed as buggy behavior and avoided touching. The ones I remember them mentioning: https://github.com/satwikkansal/wtfpython#-mutating-the-immutable https://github.com/satwikkansal/wtfpython#-mutating-the-immu... https://github.com/satwikkansal/wtfpython#-beware-of-default-mutable-arguments https://github.com/satwikkansal/wtfpython#-beware-of-default... And I multiple times I've had to explain the difference between references / shallow copy / deep copy to bootcampers, which falls under https://github.com/satwikkansal/wtfpython#-a-tic-tac-toe-where-x-wins-in-the-first-attempt https://github.com/satwikkansal/wtfpython#-a-tic-tac-toe-whe...
- andi999 6y ago
  Shallow and deep copy is a surprising concept, but I think it is the core feature that actually allows python to handle large datasets.
- neolog 6y ago
  IMO those two gotchas (mutable default and late-binding closures) are actually the main ones. That's why they're mentioned explicitly here https://docs.python-guide.org/writing/gotchas/ https://docs.python-guide.org/writing/gotchas/ Shallow/deep copies is an unavoidable part of having mutable data. The main alternative way to handle mutation is a fancy type system like Rust's, which is not an acceptable tradeoff for new programmers.

by neolog 6y ago

jolux 6y ago

>Python is easier and slower than C++, for example. Most languages are easier than C++, and many of them are faster than Python.

neolog 6y ago
There are many dimensions that different languages prioritize. As you increase the number of dimensions you consider important, the number of languages that are better than $language on all of your important dimensions tends to decrease.
- jolux 6y ago
  Sure. I have a lot of problems with Python’s design and find it grating, and I don’t think its biggest problems are about tradeoffs, they’re just mistakes.

Izkata 6y ago

> But most "wtfpython" things don't actually affect people using the language Plenty do though. I've passed that page onto co-workers a lot, back when the list was smaller, and almost every time they've found something on the page that explains a bit of weirdness with Python that they'd just dismissed as buggy behavior and avoided touching. The ones I remember them mentioning: https://github.com/satwikkansal/wtfpython#-mutating-the-immutable https://github.com/satwikkansal/wtfpython#-mutating-the-immu... https://github.com/satwikkansal/wtfpython#-beware-of-default-mutable-arguments https://github.com/satwikkansal/wtfpython#-beware-of-default... And I multiple times I've had to explain the difference between references / shallow copy / deep copy to bootcampers, which falls under https://github.com/satwikkansal/wtfpython#-a-tic-tac-toe-where-x-wins-in-the-first-attempt https://github.com/satwikkansal/wtfpython#-a-tic-tac-toe-whe...

andi999 6y ago
Shallow and deep copy is a surprising concept, but I think it is the core feature that actually allows python to handle large datasets.
neolog 6y ago
IMO those two gotchas (mutable default and late-binding closures) are actually the main ones. That's why they're mentioned explicitly here https://docs.python-guide.org/writing/gotchas/ https://docs.python-guide.org/writing/gotchas/ Shallow/deep copies is an unavoidable part of having mutable data. The main alternative way to handle mutation is a fancy type system like Rust's, which is not an acceptable tradeoff for new programmers.